Indo Persian Tulwar; opinion needed as to age

drac2k · 13th March 2016, 10:04 PM

I recently acquired this tulwar which I'm not sure as to the age.It is a heavy chopper, that has a good look, regarding age, wear, and there appears like there is some patterning in the blade.There is a profusion of armory marks that could be good or bad.
In my opinion, there is just something not quite right about it; maybe because of all of the good copies coming out of India, or just because I got it much too inexpensively.Opinions would be appreciated.

ariel · 14th March 2016, 04:01 AM

Looks like a very decent ~19th century tulwar.

The only way to suspect recent assembly would be to look at the mastique.
Old, dried, crumbly, with losses - good. Intact, shiny, - bad.

The only way to date the blade is to etch it. If it is wootz, - good. No wootz... nothing can be said about the age.

drac2k · 14th March 2016, 05:18 AM

Great clue on how to help identify an older blade.The mastique on this one is fair to good but does have losses, exposing a seed like or sawdust like material mixed in the matrix.
Thanks for your help.

kronckew · 14th March 2016, 11:30 AM

the cutler's cement used in nepal is 'laha' made from tree resin, bit of bees wax, and fibrous filler additives, plus some brick dust etc. the brick dust may give it a reddish colour.

the most common fibrous material used is dung, which contains a lot of undigested plant fibre and some seeds. gives it a lovely aroma when heated to melt it. i would suspect the indians used much the same resources

a more modern thermoplastic, solvent based cement, gorilla glue, or two part epoxy would be inappropriate

the story is told that some untrusting commanders of native troops would keep the blades and grips separate in their armouries, and only marry the two (with the cutler's (thermal) cement/mastic) just prior to going to war. helps cut down on mutinies if it takes longer and more obvious signs of the lower ranks starting to arm themselves. not suire how true this might be. anyway, more freshly melted cement may indicate more recent reconnection of the blade & grip, which may be much older. they did not generally pin or peen the tangs on the tulwars together permanently.

p.s. - looks like a nice heavy sword. worth polishing/etching a small spot to see if it is wootz. the markings look like someone tried to islamisize (sic) the decor which may indicate mughal connection rather than a hindu/buddhist area as the source.

mariusgmioc · 14th March 2016, 12:08 PM

It is very difficult to judge from the photos, but the last 5 photos appear to show some indications of pattern welding. Moreover, the shape of the blade with the fuller running along the middle of the blade and the presence of the yelman appear to confirm the 19th century suggestion.

drac2k · 14th March 2016, 01:18 PM

Thank you both for your comments.What made me somewhat suspicious was the profusion of armory marks; maybe it is a 19th century sword that somebody tried to enhance, to make it more than it is.

rand · 15th March 2016, 07:43 PM

Most period indian manufactured wootz blades would have a lap weld and a ricasso. Yours blade certainly has a ricasso and the bade edge shows wear from sharpening over a period of time. May even see a faint lap weld line. Your tulwar looks to have a period armory (for lack of better term) grade iron handle. Would suspect it is 19th century. The tooled mark on the blade appear crude later designs and not in done with the indian over lapped round punch technique often used.

rand

drac2k · 16th March 2016, 04:33 AM

Thanks for the comments Rand ;I hope to see you this weekend in Baltimore.

rand · 16th March 2016, 03:09 PM

Ditto on seeing you at the show and will show you the mamluk armor. My goal is to have a great time with friends and come back with something I have not had before.

If your tulwar is pattern welded that can be good. A pattern weld can be re-etched and if it is a pattern meant to be shown it would enhance both the beauty and value of the sword. If a pattern weld was done for function only usually with a hard steel blade edge and not meant to be shown it would have been polished bright.

rand

drac2k · 16th March 2016, 09:19 PM

Thanks

13th March 2016, 10:04 PM	#1
drac2k Member Join Date: Jun 2013 Posts: 1,232	Indo Persian Tulwar; opinion needed as to age I recently acquired this tulwar which I'm not sure as to the age.It is a heavy chopper, that has a good look, regarding age, wear, and there appears like there is some patterning in the blade.There is a profusion of armory marks that could be good or bad. In my opinion, there is just something not quite right about it; maybe because of all of the good copies coming out of India, or just because I got it much too inexpensively.Opinions would be appreciated. Attached Images

14th March 2016, 11:30 AM	#4
kronckew Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Room 101, Glos. UK Posts: 4,184	the cutler's cement used in nepal is 'laha' made from tree resin, bit of bees wax, and fibrous filler additives, plus some brick dust etc. the brick dust may give it a reddish colour. the most common fibrous material used is dung, which contains a lot of undigested plant fibre and some seeds. gives it a lovely aroma when heated to melt it. i would suspect the indians used much the same resources a more modern thermoplastic, solvent based cement, gorilla glue, or two part epoxy would be inappropriate the story is told that some untrusting commanders of native troops would keep the blades and grips separate in their armouries, and only marry the two (with the cutler's (thermal) cement/mastic) just prior to going to war. helps cut down on mutinies if it takes longer and more obvious signs of the lower ranks starting to arm themselves. not suire how true this might be. anyway, more freshly melted cement may indicate more recent reconnection of the blade & grip, which may be much older. they did not generally pin or peen the tangs on the tulwars together permanently. p.s. - looks like a nice heavy sword. worth polishing/etching a small spot to see if it is wootz. the markings look like someone tried to islamisize (sic) the decor which may indicate mughal connection rather than a hindu/buddhist area as the source. Last edited by kronckew; 14th March 2016 at 11:41 AM.

14th March 2016, 12:08 PM	#5
mariusgmioc Member Join Date: Sep 2014 Location: Austria Posts: 1,903	Pattern welded?! It is very difficult to judge from the photos, but the last 5 photos appear to show some indications of pattern welding. Moreover, the shape of the blade with the fuller running along the middle of the blade and the presence of the yelman appear to confirm the 19th century suggestion.

15th March 2016, 07:43 PM	#7
rand Member Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Virginia Posts: 538	Most period indian manufactured wootz blades would have a lap weld and a ricasso. Yours blade certainly has a ricasso and the bade edge shows wear from sharpening over a period of time. May even see a faint lap weld line. Your tulwar looks to have a period armory (for lack of better term) grade iron handle. Would suspect it is 19th century. The tooled mark on the blade appear crude later designs and not in done with the indian over lapped round punch technique often used. rand Last edited by rand; 16th March 2016 at 12:50 AM.

16th March 2016, 03:09 PM	#9
rand Member Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Virginia Posts: 538	Ditto on that! Ditto on seeing you at the show and will show you the mamluk armor. My goal is to have a great time with friends and come back with something I have not had before. If your tulwar is pattern welded that can be good. A pattern weld can be re-etched and if it is a pattern meant to be shown it would enhance both the beauty and value of the sword. If a pattern weld was done for function only usually with a hard steel blade edge and not meant to be shown it would have been polished bright. rand

14th March 2016, 04:01 AM	#2
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Looks like a very decent ~19th century tulwar. The only way to suspect recent assembly would be to look at the mastique. Old, dried, crumbly, with losses - good. Intact, shiny, - bad. The only way to date the blade is to etch it. If it is wootz, - good. No wootz... nothing can be said about the age.

14th March 2016, 05:18 AM	#3
drac2k Member Join Date: Jun 2013 Posts: 1,232	Great clue on how to help identify an older blade.The mastique on this one is fair to good but does have losses, exposing a seed like or sawdust like material mixed in the matrix. Thanks for your help.

14th March 2016, 01:18 PM	#6
drac2k Member Join Date: Jun 2013 Posts: 1,232	Thank you both for your comments.What made me somewhat suspicious was the profusion of armory marks; maybe it is a 19th century sword that somebody tried to enhance, to make it more than it is.

16th March 2016, 04:33 AM	#8
drac2k Member Join Date: Jun 2013 Posts: 1,232	Thanks for the comments Rand ;I hope to see you this weekend in Baltimore.

16th March 2016, 09:19 PM	#10
drac2k Member Join Date: Jun 2013 Posts: 1,232	Thanks