For comment: Possibly a 'Berber saber'

Lee · 24th September 2010, 12:19 PM

Received from EF:

Quote:

I found your website while trying to research a sword I found last year. I found it in an antique store in Gettysburg Pa. It wasnt Civil War related and they just wanted to get rid of it. I gave them $45.00 for it because I thought it looked cool. I am trying to find out what it is, how old, where from ect. The blade is curved and fullered like a cavalry sabre. the tip is strange like it may have been broken and reground. The handle is made of horn with iron rivets. It is decorated on one side with small circles. There is no guard on the grip. The only markings are the name Manuel Deja on the blade near the handle. Any information you have on this would be greatly appreciated.

kronckew · 24th September 2010, 12:47 PM

blade looks a lot like a british 1796 light cavalry sabre hatchet point blade that napoleons troops feared so much they tried to have it outlawed, because of the fearsome cuts it made. many other countries emulated the style. (the point is supposed to look like that)

a lot of 1796 sabres were given to the portuguese by wellington. maybe manuel was portuguese? part of the inscription seems to go under the grip bolster/scales & the full tang construction may mean it was cut down from the pommel end.

(the brits themselves feared the sabres of the indian troops they faced in later years, only to find they were recycled (like your one?) 1796 LC sabres, the main difference being the indians sharpened theirs where the brits by then were indifferently sharpened & dulled in their metal scabbards by drawing/reinserting alot.)

north africa seems to be home to a lot of re-handled european blades.

as always, dimensions, blade/hand grip lengths, widths, thickness, weight will help. see attached. comparison only valid if dimensions fit

1796 blade=32.5-33 inches.

heck, it could even be mexican/spanish colonial with a european trade blade - See This Linky to another thread here

1796 LC sabre photoshopped comparison:

Ron Anderson · 25th September 2010, 06:15 AM

Hi Lee

I bought an item very similar on eBay earlier. It was described as African. When I researched further it became clear that it was in fact South American, as you have yourself indicated it might be.

Horn handle like yours, slightly different pattern. After looking at mine I can start to see the resemble a Collins machete. I think yours is probably also a 19th century Collins machete.

But I say that with reservations as I have very seen broadly similar swords being sold as Berber swords.

Does yours have a leather scabbard. I think the fact that you have a western marking on it indicates to me it is probably a Collins machete, which was producted mainly for the Cuban/Latin American market.

I'll post pictures as soon as I get the chance.

Regards
Ron

Ron Anderson · 25th September 2010, 06:27 AM

Could I clarify that.

Your blade is not all that much like a machete. Mine is clearly, on analysis, like a very exotic Collins machete. However, the similarity in the hilts between your sword, mine and others I have seen suggests Latin America.

Collins machetes from Cuba (where mine is probably from) often featured these interesting horn hilts.

Is it possible that these sorts of weapons were also employed in the Spanish American War? I would date both yours and mine to around that era certainly.

Perhaps someone else can answer that.

Ron Anderson · 25th September 2010, 06:43 AM

Also, I can't quite read what it says on your sword blade but it looks very Spanishy to me!

I'm almost certain that this is a variant of the famous Collins machete. They did make swords for South America. In fact, they were a key exporter of military pattern swords to that region. And though yours has a curve, the hatchet point could be well be the kind of thing that came from the Collins stable.

katana · 25th September 2010, 11:55 AM

I think Wayne may be correct about the blade...The posted sword and the LC 1796 sword shown together on the pictures posted by Wayne seem to be to scale. The LC blade is longer as it still has the tang....I believe on the posted sword the tang was removed....the forte re-worked so that slabs could be fitted.
Origins

really could be arabic or South American....at the moment I'm siding with South American. The LC 1796 was adopted by the Prussians,1811 pattern or "Blücher sabre" and used by Portuguese and Spanish cavalry.....

Regards David

ariel · 25th September 2010, 12:41 PM

I have already shown one of my Nimchas: the blade is marked Nueva Granada, ie. what is currently Colombia.

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...hlight=granada

Spain had possessions in North Africa, and it is not out of court that some blades manufactured in the American colonies could have found their way to the North African ones. By the same token, N. African sabers could have been brought to the New World to start a new fashion. It was " all in the family".

fernando · 25th September 2010, 02:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kronckew

... a lot of 1796 sabres were given to the portuguese by wellington. maybe manuel was portuguese? ...

Indeed the British government poured tons of weaponry in Portugal, to establish a 'joint venture' for the defence against Napoleonic troops, but this would not be the case; 'Manuel' may either be Portuguese or Spanish, but the name 'Deja' or started by 'Deja...' can not be Portuguese; so its Spanish by exclusion.

Not rejecting the colonial probability, it does in fact seems as the handle resembles North African work.

katana · 25th September 2010, 03:01 PM

Not quite the same.....but Artzi had this sword ....a spanish bladed berber sword.

http://www.oriental-arms.co.il/item.php?id=91

Regards David

fernando · 25th September 2010, 03:05 PM

A rather similar atmosphere, David

fernando · 25th September 2010, 03:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fernando

... 'Manuel' may either be Portuguese or Spanish, but the name 'Deja' or started by 'Deja...' can not be Portuguese; so its Spanish by exclusion...

Even for Spanish is a bit of a bizarre composition

.
Could it be that a space should be considered between 'DE' and 'JA', so as to be 'MANUEL DE JA ...' ?
Thia would open the door to a few more plausible names ... still Spanish, i would say

.

katana · 25th September 2010, 03:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fernando

Could it be that a space should be considered between 'DE' and 'JA', so as to be 'MANUEL DE JA ...' ?
Thia would open the door to a few more plausible names ... still Spanish, i would say

.

Hi 'Nando

,

"Deja vu"

.....I have already search for 'manuel de ja', but cannot find any link to the name + sword

Best
David

gaerich · 25th September 2010, 04:14 PM

I fatfingered the name its manuel deje not deja. It is almost identical to the sword on this link.

edit:
The item has been relisted, link removed .

katana · 25th September 2010, 04:48 PM

Another sword on Artzi's site with a description relevent to the thread...

".......Spanish Colonial sword is the common name for these rare and unusual swords, however, where they were used is not very clear. It was attributed to Spanish troops serving in Spanish Morocco, and/or Philippines and/or Cuba and other Central America countries....."

Although the hilt is of different material there are slight similarities...also the idea of a sword 'travelling' to the US ...from North Africa via South/central America seems remotely possible.

David

.

carlos · 25th September 2010, 05:46 PM

I think this type of blades are from Spanish aerea, In the military museum of Montjuich, Barcelona ( now closed ) there are similar examples, with a example of espada ancha and a chile corvo Knife.
Best regards
Carlos

fernando · 25th September 2010, 08:46 PM

Muy bien Carlos

.
This is it.
I have been here before the museum closed. Great collection; i took pictures of that espada ancha, but they came out very poor.
I wonder what the labels say about the two sabres similar to the one posted; you mention Spanish area, but is it peninsular Spanish, Colonial Spanish, Spanish with Moorish influence?!
What do you think?

carlos · 25th September 2010, 09:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fernando

Muy bien Carlos

.
This is it.
I have been here before the museum closed. Great collection; i took pictures of that espada ancha, but they came out very poor.
I wonder what the labels say about the two sabres similar to the one posted; you mention Spanish area, but is it peninsular Spanish, Colonial Spanish, Spanish with Moorish influence?!
What do you think?

Hello Fernando!!
I think is spanish but with moorish influence, I cant remember labels at the museum, but I think moorish.
Best regards
carlos

Jim McDougall · 25th September 2010, 09:43 PM

These really interesting sabres are well represented using the search under 'Berber sabres', which was the classification used to describe them when they began noticeable appearance in number about 13-14 years ago.
Initially they were thought to be Berber, and from the Rif regions in Morocco, but that association was never really proven to the best of my knowledge.
Tirri showed them as from Spanish Moroccan regions, which seems to apply in degree as in my opinion they are 19th century ersatz type sabre/machetes that appear throughout the 'Spanish Main' of latter 19th century.

It is interesting to note that considerable numbers of these carry the M1796 light cavalry sabre blades. While obviously the British presence in the Peninsula during the Napoleonic Wars was significant, and perhaps a number of these blades entered the Spanish trade sphere with that. It should be noted that numbers of these light cavalry blades were exported to the Americas, and may well have entered the 'Main' in those regions.

These, along with the odd swords with distinct 'finger stall' impressions in the grips and deep notch at the pommel, both of which are I would condider late Spanish colonial weapons, and would have still included Republican Mexico ports of call.

I recall acquiring examples of both of these forms back about the time we began becoming aware of them in the mid 90s. The brass hilt finger stall type I acquired was said to have come from Monterrey, Mexico...while the sabre of this form was claimed as Berber, Morocco (it has the MANUEL stamp and the scabbard with vertical protrusion at tip for blade withdrawal).The subsequent research over years revealed these types as primarily acquired during Spanish-American War and from locations in Puerto Rico, Cuba and as far as the Philippines.
I have seen the 'Berber' types in Mexican sword groupings, probably from the ports of call on the Gulf, and have even seen the fingerstall type listed as Algerian (likely from Maghreb associations in trade ports).

It is interesting that many of these sabres with the M1796 type blades have had the blade tips profiled in a kind of ships prow type shape reminiscent of the blades on kampilan, and I always wondered about the association being possible via Spanish trade routes.

The finger stall hilt types are often with added shellguards and knucklebows which led many to think of them as 'espada anchas', which of course they are not. Most typically these occur without guards much as these 'Berber' sabre types, and I have seen them listed years ago in English auctions and 'Mexican sabres'.

The factor that leads away from distinct Moroccan attribution with these is that they were never included in nor mentioned by Charles Buttin, one of the most prolific collectors and researchers of the weapons of the North African Maghreb. He lived there for a considerable period of his life, so certainly would have included them if present in any degree.

Im glad to see this posted, and grateful for the opportunity to collect thoughts from the years these have been researched and discussed.
As always, I look forward to new contributions and examples that may have come up with those out there reading this.

In post #14 by David, showing the silver hilt 'fingerstall' type without guard I mentioned....this basic type as I have described in apparantly most variations is believed attributed to the Ejercito de Ultramar in Puerto Rico and Cuba, and termed 'guanabacoa' (per posting by Gonzalo 7/23/08).

In #15 by Carlos, the excellent grouping here includes the top sword with full shellguard, which we discovered about 3 years ago to be a Brazilian form of espada, and a type established with provenanced examples. These also are known with British blades.

Items 2 and 3 are of course the 'Berber' type and as noted, these guardless hilts are often reflective of 'Moorish' influence either from Morocco or in some cases other Spanish colonial regions carrying Andalusian style. Many of these hilts have the eyelet pierced presumably for lanyard or sword knot, and many are in much cruder even wooden handles, probably reflecting local variation.
With the heavy blades on most, it seems likely many of would have served both as weapons and machetes as previously noted.

All very best regards,
Jim

24th September 2010, 12:47 PM	#2
kronckew Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Room 101, Glos. UK Posts: 4,183	blade looks a lot like a british 1796 light cavalry sabre hatchet point blade that napoleons troops feared so much they tried to have it outlawed, because of the fearsome cuts it made. many other countries emulated the style. (the point is supposed to look like that) a lot of 1796 sabres were given to the portuguese by wellington. maybe manuel was portuguese? part of the inscription seems to go under the grip bolster/scales & the full tang construction may mean it was cut down from the pommel end. (the brits themselves feared the sabres of the indian troops they faced in later years, only to find they were recycled (like your one?) 1796 LC sabres, the main difference being the indians sharpened theirs where the brits by then were indifferently sharpened & dulled in their metal scabbards by drawing/reinserting alot.) north africa seems to be home to a lot of re-handled european blades. as always, dimensions, blade/hand grip lengths, widths, thickness, weight will help. see attached. comparison only valid if dimensions fit 1796 blade=32.5-33 inches. heck, it could even be mexican/spanish colonial with a european trade blade - See This Linky to another thread here 1796 LC sabre photoshopped comparison: Attached Images Last edited by kronckew; 24th September 2010 at 02:26 PM.

25th September 2010, 04:14 PM	#13
gaerich Member Join Date: Sep 2010 Posts: 1	I fatfingered the name its manuel deje not deja. It is almost identical to the sword on this link. edit: The item has been relisted, link removed . Last edited by Rick; 25th September 2010 at 09:28 PM.

25th September 2010, 09:43 PM	#18
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,945	These really interesting sabres are well represented using the search under 'Berber sabres', which was the classification used to describe them when they began noticeable appearance in number about 13-14 years ago. Initially they were thought to be Berber, and from the Rif regions in Morocco, but that association was never really proven to the best of my knowledge. Tirri showed them as from Spanish Moroccan regions, which seems to apply in degree as in my opinion they are 19th century ersatz type sabre/machetes that appear throughout the 'Spanish Main' of latter 19th century. It is interesting to note that considerable numbers of these carry the M1796 light cavalry sabre blades. While obviously the British presence in the Peninsula during the Napoleonic Wars was significant, and perhaps a number of these blades entered the Spanish trade sphere with that. It should be noted that numbers of these light cavalry blades were exported to the Americas, and may well have entered the 'Main' in those regions. These, along with the odd swords with distinct 'finger stall' impressions in the grips and deep notch at the pommel, both of which are I would condider late Spanish colonial weapons, and would have still included Republican Mexico ports of call. I recall acquiring examples of both of these forms back about the time we began becoming aware of them in the mid 90s. The brass hilt finger stall type I acquired was said to have come from Monterrey, Mexico...while the sabre of this form was claimed as Berber, Morocco (it has the MANUEL stamp and the scabbard with vertical protrusion at tip for blade withdrawal).The subsequent research over years revealed these types as primarily acquired during Spanish-American War and from locations in Puerto Rico, Cuba and as far as the Philippines. I have seen the 'Berber' types in Mexican sword groupings, probably from the ports of call on the Gulf, and have even seen the fingerstall type listed as Algerian (likely from Maghreb associations in trade ports). It is interesting that many of these sabres with the M1796 type blades have had the blade tips profiled in a kind of ships prow type shape reminiscent of the blades on kampilan, and I always wondered about the association being possible via Spanish trade routes. The finger stall hilt types are often with added shellguards and knucklebows which led many to think of them as 'espada anchas', which of course they are not. Most typically these occur without guards much as these 'Berber' sabre types, and I have seen them listed years ago in English auctions and 'Mexican sabres'. The factor that leads away from distinct Moroccan attribution with these is that they were never included in nor mentioned by Charles Buttin, one of the most prolific collectors and researchers of the weapons of the North African Maghreb. He lived there for a considerable period of his life, so certainly would have included them if present in any degree. Im glad to see this posted, and grateful for the opportunity to collect thoughts from the years these have been researched and discussed. As always, I look forward to new contributions and examples that may have come up with those out there reading this. In post #14 by David, showing the silver hilt 'fingerstall' type without guard I mentioned....this basic type as I have described in apparantly most variations is believed attributed to the Ejercito de Ultramar in Puerto Rico and Cuba, and termed 'guanabacoa' (per posting by Gonzalo 7/23/08). In #15 by Carlos, the excellent grouping here includes the top sword with full shellguard, which we discovered about 3 years ago to be a Brazilian form of espada, and a type established with provenanced examples. These also are known with British blades. Items 2 and 3 are of course the 'Berber' type and as noted, these guardless hilts are often reflective of 'Moorish' influence either from Morocco or in some cases other Spanish colonial regions carrying Andalusian style. Many of these hilts have the eyelet pierced presumably for lanyard or sword knot, and many are in much cruder even wooden handles, probably reflecting local variation. With the heavy blades on most, it seems likely many of would have served both as weapons and machetes as previously noted. All very best regards, Jim Last edited by Jim McDougall; 25th September 2010 at 09:56 PM.

25th September 2010, 06:15 AM	#3
Ron Anderson Member Join Date: Aug 2010 Location: Sydney Australia Posts: 228	Hi Lee I bought an item very similar on eBay earlier. It was described as African. When I researched further it became clear that it was in fact South American, as you have yourself indicated it might be. Horn handle like yours, slightly different pattern. After looking at mine I can start to see the resemble a Collins machete. I think yours is probably also a 19th century Collins machete. But I say that with reservations as I have very seen broadly similar swords being sold as Berber swords. Does yours have a leather scabbard. I think the fact that you have a western marking on it indicates to me it is probably a Collins machete, which was producted mainly for the Cuban/Latin American market. I'll post pictures as soon as I get the chance. Regards Ron

25th September 2010, 06:27 AM	#4
Ron Anderson Member Join Date: Aug 2010 Location: Sydney Australia Posts: 228	Could I clarify that. Your blade is not all that much like a machete. Mine is clearly, on analysis, like a very exotic Collins machete. However, the similarity in the hilts between your sword, mine and others I have seen suggests Latin America. Collins machetes from Cuba (where mine is probably from) often featured these interesting horn hilts. Is it possible that these sorts of weapons were also employed in the Spanish American War? I would date both yours and mine to around that era certainly. Perhaps someone else can answer that.

25th September 2010, 06:43 AM	#5
Ron Anderson Member Join Date: Aug 2010 Location: Sydney Australia Posts: 228	Also, I can't quite read what it says on your sword blade but it looks very Spanishy to me! I'm almost certain that this is a variant of the famous Collins machete. They did make swords for South America. In fact, they were a key exporter of military pattern swords to that region. And though yours has a curve, the hatchet point could be well be the kind of thing that came from the Collins stable.

25th September 2010, 11:55 AM	#6
katana Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Kent Posts: 2,653	I think Wayne may be correct about the blade...The posted sword and the LC 1796 sword shown together on the pictures posted by Wayne seem to be to scale. The LC blade is longer as it still has the tang....I believe on the posted sword the tang was removed....the forte re-worked so that slabs could be fitted. Origins really could be arabic or South American....at the moment I'm siding with South American. The LC 1796 was adopted by the Prussians,1811 pattern or "Blücher sabre" and used by Portuguese and Spanish cavalry..... Regards David

25th September 2010, 12:41 PM	#7
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	I have already shown one of my Nimchas: the blade is marked Nueva Granada, ie. what is currently Colombia. http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...hlight=granada Spain had possessions in North Africa, and it is not out of court that some blades manufactured in the American colonies could have found their way to the North African ones. By the same token, N. African sabers could have been brought to the New World to start a new fashion. It was " all in the family".

25th September 2010, 03:01 PM	#9
katana Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Kent Posts: 2,653	Not quite the same.....but Artzi had this sword ....a spanish bladed berber sword. http://www.oriental-arms.co.il/item.php?id=91 Regards David

25th September 2010, 03:05 PM	#10
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	A rather similar atmosphere, David

25th September 2010, 04:48 PM	#14
katana Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Kent Posts: 2,653	Another sword on Artzi's site with a description relevent to the thread... ".......Spanish Colonial sword is the common name for these rare and unusual swords, however, where they were used is not very clear. It was attributed to Spanish troops serving in Spanish Morocco, and/or Philippines and/or Cuba and other Central America countries....." Although the hilt is of different material there are slight similarities...also the idea of a sword 'travelling' to the US ...from North Africa via South/central America seems remotely possible. David . Attached Images

25th September 2010, 05:46 PM	#15
carlos Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 737	I think this type of blades are from Spanish aerea, In the military museum of Montjuich, Barcelona ( now closed ) there are similar examples, with a example of espada ancha and a chile corvo Knife. Best regards Carlos Attached Images

25th September 2010, 08:46 PM	#16
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Muy bien Carlos . This is it. I have been here before the museum closed. Great collection; i took pictures of that espada ancha, but they came out very poor. I wonder what the labels say about the two sabres similar to the one posted; you mention Spanish area, but is it peninsular Spanish, Colonial Spanish, Spanish with Moorish influence?! What do you think?