Where is this hallmark coming from ?

Martin Lubojacky · 25th September 2017, 07:34 PM

The sabre was found in Africa (see the handle). Light, springy blade, which, I think, is of European origin. Could anybody help with identification ? Thanks.

fernando · 26th September 2017, 11:58 AM

No luck so far, Martin

Martin Lubojacky · 26th September 2017, 01:22 PM

Dear Fernando, thank you for your sympathy ...

Maybe somebody knows and will come later

Ibrahiim al Balooshi · 3rd October 2017, 12:18 AM

I noted a peculiar similarity on an Indian sign....A Parrot !

Kamedev on parakeet.

Iain · 3rd October 2017, 01:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ibrahiim al Balooshi

I noted a peculiar similarity on an Indian sign....A Parrot !

Kamedev on parakeet.

The bird depicted on Martin's sword is a grouse or very similar game bird. The head and tail are distinctive.

Jim McDougall · 3rd October 2017, 02:34 AM

Martin, very nice blade which looks to be Eastern European hanger or sabre blade of 17th c, possibly into 18th. This cartouche is not a hallmark, but probably a talismanic device used in these regions and known loosely as a 'Transylvanian knot'.
Devices such as this along with often unintelligible words are often found in these kinds of flourishes. The blades if I understand correctly were often Styrian,sometimes Polish, but hard to say for sure.

The type of bird is really not relevant but could be a grouse as noted with that swirl atop the head.

I think Ariel was the one who located this data in a very obscure book,
"Huszarfegyerek a 15-17, Szadzadban " (Hussar Weapons of 15-17th c.).
A very good possibility this may have been such a hussar sabre blade which ended up being transmitted into the trade blade context.
Hungarian blades were very highly regarded in Arabia, and this one may well have entered there, from there traded into the networks which entered African entrepots.

VERY intriguing blade with some great potential!!

Martin Lubojacky · 3rd October 2017, 12:03 PM

Thank you all for your inputs. Coincidentally, I also received some reaction from experienced colleague from the Czech Army Museum in Prague, this morning.

So, he says:
Based purely on the construction of the blade: Time of producrtion between 1750 and 1830 (I think that also the style of the engraving corresponds to this age). In any case it is European blade, very probably one of that time German states or Switzerland, but Russia cannot be excluded (since Russian sabers had similar features like Prussian ones). In no case French or Austrian. Very probably made as infantry sabre for grenadiers or sappers. They did not comment the engraved bird. Their opinion is close-out sale of old stock form Europe to "third markets".
Martin

Martin Lubojacky · 3rd October 2017, 12:13 PM

Just to add: I was really very surprised by the quality of the blade. Despite the signs of long time practical use, despite the long time in Africa, the blade is still, nearly obsolutely, straight and springy (also light). And the steel is,I would say, relatively hard in comparision with other blades I have seen.

Ibrahiim al Balooshi · 4th October 2017, 05:46 PM

Jim I recall that thread and went in after this one ... I wonder is it Hungarian....?

Ibrahiim al Balooshi · 4th October 2017, 05:46 PM

See http://www.antiquesword101.com/islamic-indian-art.php#!/ Antique-16th-century-Hungarian-Sword-Blade-With-18th-century-Turkish-Ottoman-Hilt/p/84277162

The bird is similar...although it is remembered that it is Mythical and could vary in form and artists impression. The foliage represents the upper world and the Turul perches on top of it. See also https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turul

25th September 2017, 07:34 PM	#1
Martin Lubojacky Member Join Date: May 2008 Location: Czech Republic Posts: 841	Where is this hallmark coming from ? The sabre was found in Africa (see the handle). Light, springy blade, which, I think, is of European origin. Could anybody help with identification ? Thanks. Attached Images

3rd October 2017, 12:18 AM	#4
Ibrahiim al Balooshi Member Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Buraimi Oman, on the border with the UAE Posts: 4,408	I noted a peculiar similarity on an Indian sign....A Parrot ! Kamedev on parakeet. Attached Images

4th October 2017, 05:46 PM	#9
Ibrahiim al Balooshi Member Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Buraimi Oman, on the border with the UAE Posts: 4,408	Jim I recall that thread and went in after this one ... I wonder is it Hungarian....? Last edited by Ibrahiim al Balooshi; 4th October 2017 at 06:10 PM.

4th October 2017, 05:46 PM	#10
Ibrahiim al Balooshi Member Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Buraimi Oman, on the border with the UAE Posts: 4,408	See http://www.antiquesword101.com/islamic-indian-art.php#!/ Antique-16th-century-Hungarian-Sword-Blade-With-18th-century-Turkish-Ottoman-Hilt/p/84277162 The bird is similar...although it is remembered that it is Mythical and could vary in form and artists impression. The foliage represents the upper world and the Turul perches on top of it. See also https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turul Attached Images Last edited by Ibrahiim al Balooshi; 4th October 2017 at 06:08 PM.

26th September 2017, 11:58 AM	#2
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	No luck so far, Martin

26th September 2017, 01:22 PM	#3
Martin Lubojacky Member Join Date: May 2008 Location: Czech Republic Posts: 841	Dear Fernando, thank you for your sympathy ... Maybe somebody knows and will come later

3rd October 2017, 02:34 AM	#6
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,943	Martin, very nice blade which looks to be Eastern European hanger or sabre blade of 17th c, possibly into 18th. This cartouche is not a hallmark, but probably a talismanic device used in these regions and known loosely as a 'Transylvanian knot'. Devices such as this along with often unintelligible words are often found in these kinds of flourishes. The blades if I understand correctly were often Styrian,sometimes Polish, but hard to say for sure. The type of bird is really not relevant but could be a grouse as noted with that swirl atop the head. I think Ariel was the one who located this data in a very obscure book, "Huszarfegyerek a 15-17, Szadzadban " (Hussar Weapons of 15-17th c.). A very good possibility this may have been such a hussar sabre blade which ended up being transmitted into the trade blade context. Hungarian blades were very highly regarded in Arabia, and this one may well have entered there, from there traded into the networks which entered African entrepots. VERY intriguing blade with some great potential!!

3rd October 2017, 12:03 PM	#7
Martin Lubojacky Member Join Date: May 2008 Location: Czech Republic Posts: 841	Thank you all for your inputs. Coincidentally, I also received some reaction from experienced colleague from the Czech Army Museum in Prague, this morning. So, he says: Based purely on the construction of the blade: Time of producrtion between 1750 and 1830 (I think that also the style of the engraving corresponds to this age). In any case it is European blade, very probably one of that time German states or Switzerland, but Russia cannot be excluded (since Russian sabers had similar features like Prussian ones). In no case French or Austrian. Very probably made as infantry sabre for grenadiers or sappers. They did not comment the engraved bird. Their opinion is close-out sale of old stock form Europe to "third markets". Martin

3rd October 2017, 12:13 PM	#8
Martin Lubojacky Member Join Date: May 2008 Location: Czech Republic Posts: 841	Just to add: I was really very surprised by the quality of the blade. Despite the signs of long time practical use, despite the long time in Africa, the blade is still, nearly obsolutely, straight and springy (also light). And the steel is,I would say, relatively hard in comparision with other blades I have seen.