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#1 |
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I am trying to find more information on the lance in the attached photo. It was reportedly acquired via de-accession from the Metropolitan Museum of Art in 1972 and it is pictured in George Cameron Stone’s “A Glossary of the Construction, Decoration and Use of Arms and Armor“ on page 500. (I misplaced my book and ordered a new copy.). It was reportedly from Stone’s collection.
Does anyone have any information, particularly photos of other examples, that even remotely resemble this type? I have never seen the side-mounted blades before. It will likely be several weeks before the lance is in my possession. More info from a prior retail sale: Prior sale |
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#2 |
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Well, I got to my 'Stone' finally
![]() I have not seen those side 'wings' nor the curious hooks on the shaft on anything, and I have gone through every weapons and arms & armor reference I can think of. While lances were indeed used in Eastern Europe long after they had fallen out of use in the west, the Polish hussar lances were hollowed fir halves glued together a ball type vamplate mid shaft, looking mostly like medieval tilting lances. There is the possibility this is a boar hunting spear, which often have 'wings' to prevent the prey from coming up the shaft, though these elongated side 'blades' seem contrary to the extended wings typically seen. Whatever it is, it is certainly 'one of a kind' and having something of Stone's, one of the pillars of arms & armor scholarship, is outstanding!!! |
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#3 |
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Thanks for looking into it!
The Kopia is the hollowed lance with the ball, and I’m not convinced this is the remains of one. From what brief reading I’ve done, there were likely shorter, solid spears used in second wave attacks (infantry). Kopia were also single-use items, and this appears to have too much effort out into it to be disposable. The hooks are too far down to be for overpenetration. I should get some better info when it arrives. |
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#4 | |
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Pretty intriguing characters, questions on whether they actually wore the wings in combat, then there were these splintering lances. Would have loved to have seen Stone's notes on this one. |
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#5 | |
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Here are two "classic" examples of boar spear of a style common to the German-speaking countries, with antler-tip crosspieces lashed on with rawhide. The leaf-shaped blade on the left is a variation encountered in other northern and eastern European countries as well. Last edited by Philip; 9th November 2020 at 04:39 AM. Reason: add image |
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#6 |
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Here is an example of the same concept as used by some cavalry units in the Chinese Empire during the Qing Dynasty. The image was painted by Fr Giuseppe Castiglione (Lang Xining), a Jesuit scholar/artist resident at the court of the Qianlong Emperor, whose armies conducted a series of campaigns in Central Asia in the mid 18th cent. that led to East Turkestan's eventual annexation. The portrait is of A-yuxi, a Dzungar Mongol chief persuaded to change sides and serve in the Chinese ranks to avoid execution as a prisoner of war, and is shown dressed and equipped in the typical style of the high Qing era. Castiglione's paintings and drawings are an invaluable documentary source for the military equipment and disposition of troops during this campaign, since some Jesuits actually accompanied the forces into the field and sketched troops and battles veri simile.
Note the lance. Under the stiletto-like head is a straight slender steel blade attached to the wood shaft by two iron hoops. The primary purpose of this knifelike attachment appears to be twofold -- to prevent the lance head from being cut off by an opponent's saber stroke, and to discourage an opponent on foot from grasping the end of the weapon in a close melée with infantry. |
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#7 |
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Agreed Philip, the boar spear suggestion was simply noted as this pike seems to defy any other examples (those curious hooks and the side pieces). The example of the Qianlong cavalry rider with lance coincides somewhat with some other reading I came across concerning pikes, and the adding of such protective side plates/blades.
In "Arms and Armor of the English Civil Wars" by David Blackmore, p.75, discussing pikes it notes the narrowing of the ash stave toward the head presented the likelihood of the pike being sheared by sword cut. Also the thinner part of the stave could break upon force of impact and penetration. He notes long thin steel plates (cheeks or langets) but is unclear if these refer to the reinforcing/attachment langets screwed into the shaft or added plates as seen on this example. Having sharpened blades on the sides of the shaft as mentioned with the Chinese example makes sense toward the grabbing of the end of the weapon. But as we have seen, this does not seem to have been a known element in any degree. With lances, it seems that the purpose in use was not impalement, but jabbing thrusts, at least as described in most of what I have found. In the Battle of San Pascual in California in the Mexican war, the casualties of the US forces suffered as many as a dozen or more lance wounds each. With pikes, I'm not sure as they were literally a barrier against encroaching cavalry typically, and the impact must have been pretty powerful in a fast moving target. |
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#8 | |
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#9 | |
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However I do believe that massed infantry formations with pikes could provide an effective barrier against horse -- if you would look at manuals of pike drill, there is a position requiring the soldier to hold the butt against the ground and steady it with his foot, with the weapon pointing forward and upward. Seems to me that the angle of the shaft would be just right to level with the rider's body or the horse's head. And from what I have read, horses are smart enough to get nervous when they see sharp things pointed at their chests and faces. (hence the popularity of those wooden barriers called chevaux-de-frise, which provided rows of upward-pointing wooden stakes intended for the same purpose). |
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#10 | |
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Exactly, and it seems that to have the usual langets at length for three screws on two sides as per the standard practice would be sufficient to prevent through and through cutting of the shaft. The bladed appendages would be against the grabbing of the lance business end to push it away. Getting back to this being a pike, given the manner in which they were used as you describe, how would this added blade feature be feasible? As noted, the horse and rider would not rush into a sharp pole ahead, but if these were brought up as the riders reached them it would be hard to avoid. |
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#11 | |
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How long is it? Shaft diameter? What does the butt of the shaft look like? Would it have some sort of fitting or cap on it, suggesting that it might have retained it's working-life length, or does it look sawn off? With that info, we can explore the possibility about it being repurposed, which might complicate things a bit. Once we address these questions and can surmise about its deployment (cavalry or infantry?) with greater certainty, then we can discuss these blade things. |
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#12 |
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Good idea Phiilip, we need more detail on the character, dimensions etc. before speculating further.
For reference, here is p.500 out of Stone (1934) with the item in grouping of pikes. The other is a boar spear from a JAAS article just to establish the character of many of these. |
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#13 | |
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The side blades could be an obvious “Don’t grab my lance” addition. Could they also be additional damage potential from a glancing blow during a charge, or rather, when receiving a charge? This would be supported by the hooks, that could dismount violently if the lance tip did not make purchase. Very much a “congrats on making it past the tip unharmed. Guess what’s next?” The hooks certainly don’t appear to be for stacking purposes. A haft of similar size will not fit within the hook. I recall seeing some polearms stacked (or rather, leaning against each other like a tripod) in artwork, but this doesn’t seem to be viable for this example. In order of utility/role, my thoughts are currently, in order from most likely to least: 1) Receiving a charge, and engaging thereafter 2) Secondary infantry charge/role (unmounted) 3) Mounting a charge 4) Hunting |
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#14 | |
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I will certainly be checking to see if those hooks are actually connected by metal to the side blades. Wouldn’t THAT be an interesting development... with the hooks, blades, langets, and head all being forged together as one piece. I’d be stunned if that’s the case. I’m very excited for this to arrive. I am currently hanging polearms in my new house and will have to rearrange the order around this item. |
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#15 |
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Attached pic is the non-business end, and is presumed to be shortened as the whole thing is only 90 inches.
The cracks are interesting, as is the undetermined treatment to the butt. If this is a hollow shaft, it will certainly answer some questions. |
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#16 | |
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Hollow or solid? Diameter? Type of wood? (as you say, the cracks are interesting, might be related to grain structure and hence the species of timber...) Butt end does look shortened. 90 in. is short for either a cavalry lance or an infantry pike, but not unreasonable for some other type of spear or spontoon. But who knows how long the shaft was originally? Tell us something about how it balances in your hands and that might be instructive as well. |
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#17 | |
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The hooks may be too small for engaging other shafts for stacking, and they are also not big enough, nor efficiently shaped, for use as musket-rests (and they are on a pole too long for the purpose). I've seen Italian musket-rests that are slightly extended above the hooks to terminate in a spear head. There is also an Italian cannoneer's implement called a buttafuoco with a spear head with a pair of addorsed appendages below it terminating in holders for match-cord, allowing a gunner to safely stand to the side when firing (avoiding the inevitable recoil) and giving him a bladed implement to defend his gun position if overrun. However, the hooks on this spear/pike are of an inappropriate shape and the shaft is again too long. However, I would question their utility for dismounting a foe (whether by engaging his harness, clothing, etc). This is because the hooks curl forward. One would think that to yank someone off his high horse, a pulling motion would be a lot more effective and as such, the hooks should curve backward. Below is an image of some examples of a weapon called a roncone (big billhook) whose crescentic and pointed appendages curve backwards and are admirably suited for unhorsing. This is from Mario Troso's Le Armi in Asta delle Fanterie Europee (1000-1500), pp 268-69. |
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#18 | |
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The curve on the hooks is pretty aggressive. It is really hard to determine their utility. I agree that they don’t appear to act as a linstock or musket rest. I’m a big fan of Roncones and just got my first one. |
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#19 |
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I do not know what the purpose of these hooks is, to me they appear rather weak to have a serious & direct offensive or defensive role & they immediately remind me of the lashing 'hooks' on this combination musket/crossbow (see link). I have no idea if they are for fastening something to the lance and this is merely food for thought.
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ation+crossbow |
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#20 |
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As I understand it, the famous Polish Winged Hussars were equipped with exceptionally long lances of 4-7m. This meant that their lances would reach a pikeman first if the lance was longer than the pike. It also meant that the lances had to be hollow to reduce weight. Some say the lances splintered easily on impact and were disposable, others argue that the hollowness actually made them stronger and more able to absorb shocks. I understand that the Polished Winged Hussars charged at full gallop, and the shock impact must have been considerable. Some local sources claim that the lance could skewer several enemies on impact.
I think I have seen hooks like that somewhere but can’t recall where. They look like they are intended to catch and rip or deflect (enemy pikes?). The sharp blades attached on the sides would slice where the point might be deflected or it might cut enemy pikes on impact. I tried to search for an antique kopia on the internet to compare but was unable to find one. |
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#21 |
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I found this snippet from a book. These examples of Kopia heads certainly back up the “disposable” idea. My spear is different in every possible way, except that it’s pointy.
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#22 | |
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#23 | |
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The vexing thing is that there seems to be no other comparable examples in existence. At least to our present knowledge. Hopefully the historical military literature might provide an answer, or at least a clue. |
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#24 | |
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I’ve attached some pics. I’m not sure what order they will attach in, but I have an overview of the roncone, a closeup up the blade, a view of the original langets (partial, I assume), the benefits of high ceilings, and the rest of the children waiting to be attached to the wall. Should have 18 total, I think. I like to arrange them with similar heads opposite each other, so I’ll likely put the Polish pike on the end, opposite the large boar spear, and have the roncone opposite the large Glaive. This was another reason I was excited to get the pike in this thread. It is going to balance out the display with my other spear, I hope! I lost a corseque at auction this weekend, which would have matched my 15th century Italian lance. Sad, but I have to keep money in reserve for a large painting this weekend. I need a decent corseque and spetum. I’m always looking for a traditional pollaxe, but at $8-12k, that’s a... commitment. I just bought this new house so my play money is disappearing quickly. |
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#25 |
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Thanks for posting your new treasure, it really deserves a thread all its own, hopefully we can have other members chime in regarding the development of the bill in other European countries besides Italy, with examples of same from their own collections!
Your roncone is indeed a wonderful example of the genre, its form quite nicely preserved, without visible damage, repairs, or alteration. The extremely long dorsal spike is a nice feature. Let's see it after you clean it up, (should look spectacular!) and get a dedicated discussion thread going. |
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#26 |
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Excellent wall display! Congratulations. Looks really great. Here is a picture from Inverary Castle in Scotland for inspiration.
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#27 | |
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#28 | |
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I used the Higgins Armory (now closed) as an example for my display. I would have done a full half-circle if my ceiling wasn’t slanted. I have more to hang, and I’ll make a thread about my hanging system, which I’m very happy with. |
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#29 | |
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I decided to only display in one personal room in my flat (cozy office/TV room) for consideration to my wife, and so as not to alarm visitors in Sweden which is appallingly PC. ![]() ![]() |
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#30 | |
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