15th to 17th Century German War Flails

Matchlock · 7th October 2009, 04:35 PM

In chronological order from top.

All of them are preserved in the German Historic Museum Berlin, except for the 15th c. detached head illustrated in color, which is in a private collection and the fore end stabilizing ring and central spike of which are both missing now.

Please note the Gothic roped decoration on the reinforcing bands of the 15th c. items.

Best,
Michael

Matchlock · 7th October 2009, 04:41 PM

The rest.

Jim McDougall · 7th October 2009, 10:29 PM

These are certainly intimidating looking items and while incredibly basic tools, clearly were effective in use for many centuries. Although they were used against armour clad individuals (intendedly of course) it is interesting that the impact from these weapons could severely dent armour, even to the point of transmitting blunt force wounds to the individual.

The force of impact could also unhorse the opponent, as well as compromise the integrity of the armour so that the unhorsed combatant might be attacked on foot.

The writhen or roped support elements on the 15th century examples makes me wonder if that feature was a strengthening rather than aesthetic use.

Best regards,
Jim

Matchlock · 8th October 2009, 10:35 AM

The writhen or roped support elements on the 15th century examples makes me wonder if that feature was a strengthening rather than aesthetic use.

Best regards,
Jim[/QUOTE]

Hi Jim,

I guess in this case it actually was a bit of both.

Generally I think it was mostly for decorative purposes though. As I have tried to put out in my threads several times the roped or writhen decoration is a characteristic stylistic element of all ironwork, including A&A, from the late 15th to the mid 16th century. It is found as a filed ornament on the brims of Gothic sallets and 'Maximilian' suits of armor, as well as on barrel sections, springs etc. of firearms or the pommels and cross guards of swords of the 1520's-40's.

However, its use was not limited to ironwork. You will find roped bands carved on all Late Gothic/Early Renaissance furniture, on apothecary bronze mortars etc. so that one can safely state that this stylistic element was applied to all arts and crafts alike.

Best wishes as ever,
your friend Michael

broadaxe · 12th October 2009, 02:41 PM

Although the flail is a clumsy weapon, hard to retrieve and poor as defence, its impact was probably the worst - especially the ball & chain combination. It generates considerably more power than a mace. I saw a TV show on the History channel where they had made a historic replica (2 pounds ball with short blunt spikes) and tried it on an armored pig carcass. The armor was of course dented, and while the pig skin remained unharmed, the tissues within became like jello and the bones were pulverized.

Matchlock · 12th October 2009, 04:13 PM

Hi broadaxe,

Yup, flails were not exactly toys!

Best,
Michael

Matchlock · 12th October 2009, 05:32 PM

You can see it on the first image, lying left in the foreground in front of my contemporary four barreled mace.

It was made from the grip and writhen pommel of a two hand sword, ca. 1525-30, retaining its original leather covering over a cord binding, the twisted iron part retaining an old minium (red lead) paint, the chain acting either vertically or horizontally only, just like the chain on a bicycle or wheel-lock, and the head consisting of a polygonal sword pommel of ca. 1400.

I had owned that piece for amost a decade before selling it Hermann Historica, Munich, Oct 6, 2008.

I guess many collectors face circumstances every once in while being forced to deaccession of one item or the other in order to raise funds for new acquisitions that fit the collection even better. Still miss the piece though.

Best,
Michael

kisak · 12th October 2009, 08:43 PM

The full sized pictures of the writhen flail on Hermann Historica's website can be found here:
http://www.hermann-historica.de/aukt..._max/73797.jpg
http://www.hermann-historica.de/aukt...ax/73797_b.jpg

Matchlock · 24th October 2009, 05:18 AM

[QUOTE=Matchlock]You can see it on the first image, lying left in the foreground in front of my contemporary four barreled mace.

It was made from the grip and writhen pommel of a two hand sword, ca. 1525-30, retaining its original leather covering over a cord binding, the twisted iron part retaining an old minium (red lead) paint, the chain acting either vertically or horizontally only, just like the chain on a bicycle or wheel-lock, and the head consisting of a polygonal sword pommel of ca. 1500.

I had owned that piece for amost a decade before selling it Hermann Historica, Munich, Oct 6, 2008.

Attached please find a pommel of identical type on a North Italian sword, ca. 1500, preserved at the Palazzo Ducale Venice.

Michael

Matchlock · 24th October 2009, 06:00 AM

Overall length of the wooden haft, reinforced with side straps only over the first 50 cm, 252.5 cm, diameter of the spiked ball, including the ring for the chain, 20 cm, weight of the ball ca. 12 kg (!).

Especially the form and largeness of the spiked ball indicates a relatively late date which can by no means have been contemporary with any actual use in combat. The tentative dating "15th-16th century" given by the Landszeughaus Graz can be ruled out solidly by an open minded comparison of the weight of the huge ball (ca. 12 kg!) and the strikingly incongrouos, long and delicate wooden staff. Reinforced or not, the latter would have cracked immediately below the straps.

Serious historic argumentation can only lead to the conclusion that this, at best, has to be counted among those typical 19th century Historismus items that, just like the two hand swords of the period, were ridiculously overexaggerated in their dimensions until total impracticability and made for 'romance' wall decoration with a wink of heroism only.

It should be mentioned in the end that this object, impressive and bewildering as it may be, was acquired by the Landeszeughus Graz in 1940.

Michael, still grinning ...

broadaxe · 24th October 2009, 11:06 AM

Matchlock, well said. Another sign I always use is to observe the chain: this one clearly looks industrial, with small uniform links, round cross section. 1500's era chains (well, most pre-industy chains, excluding fusee chains for use in precision movements such as in clocks) have large, uneven links with forge welded seam and square cross section.

Matchlock · 24th October 2009, 05:41 PM

Exactly, broadaxe,

On second thought however this massive chain is at least strong enough to bear the weight of the spiked ball ...

7th October 2009, 04:35 PM	#1
Matchlock (deceased) Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Bavaria, Germany - the center of 15th and 16th century gunmaking Posts: 4,310	15th to 17th Century German War Flails In chronological order from top. All of them are preserved in the German Historic Museum Berlin, except for the 15th c. detached head illustrated in color, which is in a private collection and the fore end stabilizing ring and central spike of which are both missing now. Please note the Gothic roped decoration on the reinforcing bands of the 15th c. items. Best, Michael Attached Images

7th October 2009, 04:41 PM	#2
Matchlock (deceased) Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Bavaria, Germany - the center of 15th and 16th century gunmaking Posts: 4,310	The rest. Attached Images

12th October 2009, 05:32 PM	#7
Matchlock (deceased) Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Bavaria, Germany - the center of 15th and 16th century gunmaking Posts: 4,310	An Unusual Peasants Wars Flail, 1530's, Formerly in my Collection You can see it on the first image, lying left in the foreground in front of my contemporary four barreled mace. It was made from the grip and writhen pommel of a two hand sword, ca. 1525-30, retaining its original leather covering over a cord binding, the twisted iron part retaining an old minium (red lead) paint, the chain acting either vertically or horizontally only, just like the chain on a bicycle or wheel-lock, and the head consisting of a polygonal sword pommel of ca. 1400. I had owned that piece for amost a decade before selling it Hermann Historica, Munich, Oct 6, 2008. I guess many collectors face circumstances every once in while being forced to deaccession of one item or the other in order to raise funds for new acquisitions that fit the collection even better. Still miss the piece though. Best, Michael Attached Images

24th October 2009, 05:18 AM	#9
Matchlock (deceased) Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Bavaria, Germany - the center of 15th and 16th century gunmaking Posts: 4,310	[QUOTE=Matchlock]You can see it on the first image, lying left in the foreground in front of my contemporary four barreled mace. It was made from the grip and writhen pommel of a two hand sword, ca. 1525-30, retaining its original leather covering over a cord binding, the twisted iron part retaining an old minium (red lead) paint, the chain acting either vertically or horizontally only, just like the chain on a bicycle or wheel-lock, and the head consisting of a polygonal sword pommel of ca. 1500. I had owned that piece for amost a decade before selling it Hermann Historica, Munich, Oct 6, 2008. Attached please find a pommel of identical type on a North Italian sword, ca. 1500, preserved at the Palazzo Ducale Venice. Michael Attached Images

24th October 2009, 06:00 AM	#10
Matchlock (deceased) Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Bavaria, Germany - the center of 15th and 16th century gunmaking Posts: 4,310	A Funny 19th Century 'Croatian' Flail of Decorative Function Only Overall length of the wooden haft, reinforced with side straps only over the first 50 cm, 252.5 cm, diameter of the spiked ball, including the ring for the chain, 20 cm, weight of the ball ca. 12 kg (!). Especially the form and largeness of the spiked ball indicates a relatively late date which can by no means have been contemporary with any actual use in combat. The tentative dating "15th-16th century" given by the Landszeughaus Graz can be ruled out solidly by an open minded comparison of the weight of the huge ball (ca. 12 kg!) and the strikingly incongrouos, long and delicate wooden staff. Reinforced or not, the latter would have cracked immediately below the straps. Serious historic argumentation can only lead to the conclusion that this, at best, has to be counted among those typical 19th century Historismus items that, just like the two hand swords of the period, were ridiculously overexaggerated in their dimensions until total impracticability and made for 'romance' wall decoration with a wink of heroism only. It should be mentioned in the end that this object, impressive and bewildering as it may be, was acquired by the Landeszeughus Graz in 1940. Michael, still grinning ... Attached Images Last edited by Matchlock; 24th October 2009 at 08:30 PM.

7th October 2009, 10:29 PM	#3
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,940	These are certainly intimidating looking items and while incredibly basic tools, clearly were effective in use for many centuries. Although they were used against armour clad individuals (intendedly of course) it is interesting that the impact from these weapons could severely dent armour, even to the point of transmitting blunt force wounds to the individual. The force of impact could also unhorse the opponent, as well as compromise the integrity of the armour so that the unhorsed combatant might be attacked on foot. The writhen or roped support elements on the 15th century examples makes me wonder if that feature was a strengthening rather than aesthetic use. Best regards, Jim

8th October 2009, 10:35 AM	#4
Matchlock (deceased) Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Bavaria, Germany - the center of 15th and 16th century gunmaking Posts: 4,310	The writhen or roped support elements on the 15th century examples makes me wonder if that feature was a strengthening rather than aesthetic use. Best regards, Jim[/QUOTE] Hi Jim, I guess in this case it actually was a bit of both. Generally I think it was mostly for decorative purposes though. As I have tried to put out in my threads several times the roped or writhen decoration is a characteristic stylistic element of all ironwork, including A&A, from the late 15th to the mid 16th century. It is found as a filed ornament on the brims of Gothic sallets and 'Maximilian' suits of armor, as well as on barrel sections, springs etc. of firearms or the pommels and cross guards of swords of the 1520's-40's. However, its use was not limited to ironwork. You will find roped bands carved on all Late Gothic/Early Renaissance furniture, on apothecary bronze mortars etc. so that one can safely state that this stylistic element was applied to all arts and crafts alike. Best wishes as ever, your friend Michael

12th October 2009, 02:41 PM	#5
broadaxe Member Join Date: Nov 2008 Posts: 332	Although the flail is a clumsy weapon, hard to retrieve and poor as defence, its impact was probably the worst - especially the ball & chain combination. It generates considerably more power than a mace. I saw a TV show on the History channel where they had made a historic replica (2 pounds ball with short blunt spikes) and tried it on an armored pig carcass. The armor was of course dented, and while the pig skin remained unharmed, the tissues within became like jello and the bones were pulverized.

12th October 2009, 04:13 PM	#6
Matchlock (deceased) Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Bavaria, Germany - the center of 15th and 16th century gunmaking Posts: 4,310	Hi broadaxe, Yup, flails were not exactly toys! Best, Michael

12th October 2009, 08:43 PM	#8
kisak Member Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: Stockholm Posts: 182	The full sized pictures of the writhen flail on Hermann Historica's website can be found here: http://www.hermann-historica.de/aukt..._max/73797.jpg http://www.hermann-historica.de/aukt...ax/73797_b.jpg

24th October 2009, 11:06 AM	#11
broadaxe Member Join Date: Nov 2008 Posts: 332	Matchlock, well said. Another sign I always use is to observe the chain: this one clearly looks industrial, with small uniform links, round cross section. 1500's era chains (well, most pre-industy chains, excluding fusee chains for use in precision movements such as in clocks) have large, uneven links with forge welded seam and square cross section.

24th October 2009, 05:41 PM	#12
Matchlock (deceased) Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Bavaria, Germany - the center of 15th and 16th century gunmaking Posts: 4,310	Exactly, broadaxe, On second thought however this massive chain is at least strong enough to bear the weight of the spiked ball ...