Matcing pair of Flintlock Pistols

Miguel · 19th March 2016, 05:03 PM

Hello Everyone.

I would like to share these with you for comments and information, if possible.

I was told by the Dealer, when I purchased them, that they were Turkish and that is all I know. They both carry clear stamps on the barrels and have the word `ROSSI` stamped on the lock plate. The fittings look like gilded brass or bronze and the stocks are decorated with silver wire. The ramrods are dummies made from wood with bone sleeve at the end. From the light patch in the patina at the muzzle end of the barrels it looks as though they may be missing a band for decoration and or securing the barrels.

These items were and still are a complete departure to my edged weapon collecting but on the day I saw them I was pretty flush and just could not resist them as I liked them so much and still do, I suppose its what is called an `impulse buy`.

Anyway I digress and would ask the more knowledgeable members of this type of weapon if they could provide more information on them. Thanking you in advance.
Regards
Miguel

corrado26 · 20th March 2016, 09:59 AM

In the "Neue Stöckel" there are 18 gunmakers with the Name "ROSSI" in the area of Brescia and Genova/Italy. Francesco Rossi has been working at Brescia in the years from 1775-1788 and Lorenzo was 1743. So it is thinkable that the lock has been made by one of these.

The mark "DT" together with the other mark belongs to a Paris gunmaker named DANIEL THIERMAY who was working there from 1700 to ca. 1740.

So it is clear that the pistol has been made out of parts with different origins. Who this made and where this pistol has been assembled I cannot say but lots of these pistols have been made not only in Turkey but also in the area of Napoli/I
corrado26

rickystl · 21st March 2016, 02:31 AM

Hi Miguel.

That is a very nice looking pair of Ottoman styled horse pistols. And, thanks to the information supplied by Corrado, we could place these pistols in the second or third quarter of the 18th Century, which would be a real plus. (Assuming the locks and barrels were not re-used later to re-stock the pistols. But I don't think so in this case). And I note the brass European style triggers. Giving us another clue to possible European assembly. But they could also have been assembled at one of the gun making centers in the Balkans, utilizing the European locks and barrels. We'll probably never know for sure. But these pistols give strong clues of possible European manufacture for export to the Ottoman market.
Noting the missing patina, the wood, and the location of the front barrel pin, it does indeed look like there were originally reinforcing bands at the muzzle. Which would also be common for these pistols. Curious they are missing considering the great condition and completeness of the rest of the gun. Hmmm.

Another interesting note: Notice the lack of a screwdriver slot on the outside of the decorative hammer screws. This leads me to believe the hammer is held fast to the tumbler from inside the lock. It's not unheard of, but you seldom see this feature on locks. Very interesting.
Again, great looking pair!!!
Rick

kahnjar1 · 21st March 2016, 03:57 AM

Hi Rick,
Re the hammer screws....have you considered the possibility that the petal shaped edging could be to facilitate the use of some sort of "key" to attach the hammers?
Stu

corrado26 · 21st March 2016, 09:24 AM

The missing slot in the hammerscrew is very common at locks made in Brescia, where the gunmaker ROSSI has been working.
corrado26

Miguel · 21st March 2016, 09:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by corrado26

In the "Neue Stöckel" there are 18 gunmakers with the Name "ROSSI" in the area of Brescia and Genova/Italy. Francesco Rossi has been working at Brescia in the years from 1775-1788 and Lorenzo was 1743. So it is thinkable that the lock has been made by one of these.

The mark "DT" together with the other mark belongs to a Paris gunmaker named DANIEL THIERMAY who was working there from 1700 to ca. 1740.

So it is clear that the pistol has been made out of parts with different origins. Who this made and where this pistol has been assembled I cannot say but lots of these pistols have been made not only in Turkey but also in the area of Napoli/I
corrado26

Hi Corrado,

Thank you so much for the information it makes these pistols more fascinating than ever to me I am truly much obliged.

Miguel

Miguel · 21st March 2016, 10:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rickystl

Hi Miguel.

That is a very nice looking pair of Ottoman styled horse pistols. And, thanks to the information supplied by Corrado, we could place these pistols in the second or third quarter of the 18th Century, which would be a real plus. (Assuming the locks and barrels were not re-used later to re-stock the pistols. But I don't think so in this case). And I note the brass European style triggers. Giving us another clue to possible European assembly. But they could also have been assembled at one of the gun making centers in the Balkans, utilizing the European locks and barrels. We'll probably never know for sure. But these pistols give strong clues of possible European manufacture for export to the Ottoman market.
Noting the missing patina, the wood, and the location of the front barrel pin, it does indeed look like there were originally reinforcing bands at the muzzle. Which would also be common for these pistols. Curious they are missing considering the great condition and completeness of the rest of the gun. Hmmm.

Another interesting note: Notice the lack of a screwdriver slot on the outside of the decorative hammer screws. This leads me to believe the hammer is held fast to the tumbler from inside the lock. It's not unheard of, but you seldom see this feature on locks. Very interesting.
Again, great looking pair!!!
Rick

Hi Rick,

Thank you for you really interesting comments and I am pleased that you like them. As I mentioned earlier these are the only guns I have in my weapons collection and I have been taken back by the information kindly supplied by yourself and Corrado, it is a real eye-opener to me having no knowledge of guns. I just could not resist these and bought them because I liked them and it looks as though I made a good choice which is a double bonus. Thanks again I really appreciate the information.
Regards
Miguel

rickystl · 26th March 2016, 07:16 PM

Hi Stu. No, I was under the impression that the hammer was secured to the tumbler, in some form, from inside the lock.

Corrado: Thanks so much for the photos and information. I just learned something new on Italian guns. Very interesting. Thanks again.

Miguel: Yes, super nice pair of pistols, with more ID than usually encountered with these pistols. The barrel and lock ID are a real plus. Congrats.

Rick.

19th March 2016, 05:03 PM	#1
Miguel Member Join Date: Jun 2015 Posts: 584	Matcing pair of Flintlock Pistols Hello Everyone. I would like to share these with you for comments and information, if possible. I was told by the Dealer, when I purchased them, that they were Turkish and that is all I know. They both carry clear stamps on the barrels and have the word `ROSSI` stamped on the lock plate. The fittings look like gilded brass or bronze and the stocks are decorated with silver wire. The ramrods are dummies made from wood with bone sleeve at the end. From the light patch in the patina at the muzzle end of the barrels it looks as though they may be missing a band for decoration and or securing the barrels. These items were and still are a complete departure to my edged weapon collecting but on the day I saw them I was pretty flush and just could not resist them as I liked them so much and still do, I suppose its what is called an `impulse buy`. Anyway I digress and would ask the more knowledgeable members of this type of weapon if they could provide more information on them. Thanking you in advance. Regards Miguel Attached Images

20th March 2016, 09:59 AM	#2
corrado26 Member Join Date: Dec 2014 Location: Black Forest, Germany Posts: 1,204	In the "Neue Stöckel" there are 18 gunmakers with the Name "ROSSI" in the area of Brescia and Genova/Italy. Francesco Rossi has been working at Brescia in the years from 1775-1788 and Lorenzo was 1743. So it is thinkable that the lock has been made by one of these. The mark "DT" together with the other mark belongs to a Paris gunmaker named DANIEL THIERMAY who was working there from 1700 to ca. 1740. So it is clear that the pistol has been made out of parts with different origins. Who this made and where this pistol has been assembled I cannot say but lots of these pistols have been made not only in Turkey but also in the area of Napoli/I corrado26 Attached Images

21st March 2016, 09:24 AM	#5
corrado26 Member Join Date: Dec 2014 Location: Black Forest, Germany Posts: 1,204	The missing slot in the hammerscrew is very common at locks made in Brescia, where the gunmaker ROSSI has been working. corrado26 Attached Images

21st March 2016, 02:31 AM	#3
rickystl Member Join Date: Jul 2010 Location: St. Louis, MO area. Posts: 1,623	Hi Miguel. That is a very nice looking pair of Ottoman styled horse pistols. And, thanks to the information supplied by Corrado, we could place these pistols in the second or third quarter of the 18th Century, which would be a real plus. (Assuming the locks and barrels were not re-used later to re-stock the pistols. But I don't think so in this case). And I note the brass European style triggers. Giving us another clue to possible European assembly. But they could also have been assembled at one of the gun making centers in the Balkans, utilizing the European locks and barrels. We'll probably never know for sure. But these pistols give strong clues of possible European manufacture for export to the Ottoman market. Noting the missing patina, the wood, and the location of the front barrel pin, it does indeed look like there were originally reinforcing bands at the muzzle. Which would also be common for these pistols. Curious they are missing considering the great condition and completeness of the rest of the gun. Hmmm. Another interesting note: Notice the lack of a screwdriver slot on the outside of the decorative hammer screws. This leads me to believe the hammer is held fast to the tumbler from inside the lock. It's not unheard of, but you seldom see this feature on locks. Very interesting. Again, great looking pair!!! Rick

21st March 2016, 03:57 AM	#4
kahnjar1 Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: CHRISTCHURCH NEW ZEALAND Posts: 2,739	Hi Rick, Re the hammer screws....have you considered the possibility that the petal shaped edging could be to facilitate the use of some sort of "key" to attach the hammers? Stu

26th March 2016, 07:16 PM	#8
rickystl Member Join Date: Jul 2010 Location: St. Louis, MO area. Posts: 1,623	Hi Stu. No, I was under the impression that the hammer was secured to the tumbler, in some form, from inside the lock. Corrado: Thanks so much for the photos and information. I just learned something new on Italian guns. Very interesting. Thanks again. Miguel: Yes, super nice pair of pistols, with more ID than usually encountered with these pistols. The barrel and lock ID are a real plus. Congrats. Rick.