Need help to identify pommel and guard from sword.

[busterxxl]

Hi.

I would appreciate any information possible to the attached pictures.

The items is a loose find on an unidentified shipwreck site in Norway.

I have some idea about the time and nationality, but would like to hear more details from experts in here.

Age,nationality,type etc etc. makers information etc.
Appreciate any information you might have aout these pieces.

This one is "half hearted", there are also one oice with a "whole heart guard" lying still in the deep on the wreck site.

For the sake of good order I can inform that the Maritime museum is informed about the find, and is in possesion of the "salvaged" items.

[Norman McCormick]

Hi,
These grips and guards are typical of mid to late 18thC military hangers, e.g. the British 1751 pattern, many European countries had a variety of similarly mounted weapons Denmark, Russia etc. The shell guards were sometimes modified by the owners i.e. totally or partially removed, the photo is of an earlier type, the so-called British 1742, but with a similar shell guard having been contemporarily removed. Hope this is of some help.
Regards,
Norman.

P.S. There are sometimes unit markings on the guards.

[Hotspur]

The French used the half guards in the second quarter of the 18th century and the manufacture as just a half is generally regarded as a cost saving measure. Used both for land and sea ventures, curved and straight blades.

Gilkerson's Boarder's Away shows three likely cousins but all with full guards. The British example circa 1742 has a spiral/fluted grip such as this. There is a Swedish example and curved French example, Again, those three all full guards.

Neumann's Swords and Blades of the American Revolution figure 54s shows a half hilt French example. I also own a half hilt and have been in discourse with a Canadian that produces these new, as well as owning a very close sister to my own example. I am listing his references along with this above but would not say France was the only source of these purposefully manufactured half hilts.

Pétard: 2005, fig.71
Pétard: 1977
Neumann: 1991, fig. 54.S
Brassard: 2002
Chartrand: 1984, fig. 29

Brain, Jeffrey P., Tunica Treasure, Peabody Museum, Harvard, 1979, 329 p

Chartrand, René, The French Soldier in Colonial America, Museum Restoration Service, Ottawa, 1984, 40 p.

Chartrand, René, Louis XV's Army (5) Colonial and Naval Troops, Men-at-Arms 313, Osprey Publishings, Oxford UK, 1998, 48 p.

Diderot (dir.). L’Encyclopédie, planches du ceinturier-boursier, 1751-1777

Pétard, Michel, Les équipements militaires de 1600 à 1870, t. I (de 1600 à 1750), chez l’auteur, Nantes, 1984, 117 p.

Proulx, Gilles, Étude sur le costume militaire a Louisbourg: 1713-1758, rapport H-F17R, Forteresse-de-Louisbourg, Parcs Canada, 1971

Pétard, Michel, Les équipements militaires de 1600 à 1870, t. II (de 1750 à 1789), chez l’auteur, Nantes, 1985, 95 p.

La Porterie, Institutions Militaires pour la Cavalerie et les Dragons, Guillyn, Paris, 1754.

David Ledoyen, At the Royal Sword | info@theroyalsword.com |
Tel. : 514-522-3108
2538 rue Cuvillier, Montréal (Québec) CANADA H1W 3B1

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My files always in a bit of disarray but I do have the two specific mentioned in one spot while my own stowed away right now. These are both of the straight blade variety and both once had wire with no fluting to the grip.

I point these out but location of recovery must be considered and similarities to other nation's cutlery but to my knowledge, the half hilts usually turn out to be French. A handful more just like mine have turned up on Ebay but they are not everyday listings. Few and far between. Keep in mind now on the net the reproductions from David's source and business. Those are visually correct to originals.

Cheers

GC

having an issue with uploads but will try to get the second sword up. This post shows my piece

[Hotspur]

David's sword

[Norman McCormick]

Hi busterxxl,
Try arma-dania website, all the hilts shown here are from Danish military swords over approx a hundred year timeline, mid 18thC to mid 19thC. Some have half "hearts".
Regards,
Norman.

P.S. I was always under the impression, rightly or wrongly, that the British "1742" was normally associated with a wooden wire wrapped hilt and the "1751" had the solid fluted brass hilt but I suspect, as in all these things, there is a certain 'fluidity' between the types.

[Hotspur]

Originally Posted by Norman McCormick

Hi busterxxl,
Try arma-dania website, all the hilts shown here are from Danish military swords over approx a hundred year timeline, mid 18thC to mid 19thC. Some have half "hearts".
Regards,
Norman.

P.S. I was always under the impression, rightly or wrongly, that the British "1742" was normally associated with a wooden wire wrapped hilt and the "1751" had the solid fluted brass hilt but I suspect, as in all these things, there is a certain 'fluidity' between the types.

Hi Norm

The ca 1742 for the British example was verbatim from Gilkerson's book and possibly not meant as a model number. Also not described as having a cast grip.

Thanks for the site mentioned reminder. I have that bookmarked

http://www.vaabenhistoriskselskab.dk...a/ad_intro.php

Here is a Swedish museum
http://www.sfhm.se/templates/pages/A...epslanguage=EN

Cheers

GC

[Norman McCormick]

Hi Glen,
The '51' and '42' nomenclature is, as you know, rather ad hoc anyway and can be variable user to user. Thanks for the Swedish Museum website, not one I'd looked at before. To keep on the path of the Danes here is an entry from 'Lyles' 1982.
My Regards,
Norman.