good day

[chregu]

hello together
Today is a good day! smile.
me, this knife was offered, but unfortunately no idea what this is or where it might originate.
can anyone help me?
grüsse Chregu

[Tim Simmons]

This is really nice. I think this is from West Afric, Benin and there about's. The bird pommel could allude to the bird of prophecy. I do not know how diffuse that is. I do know that bird symbols are a special motif over a vast West African area.

[Lew]

Tim

This does not strike me as West African. The cross guard and ferrule seem too sophisticated to me? I will see if I can come up with something for discussion. Ok here is my take. This could be Indonesian or possibly from one of the islands off India. The hilt and guard seem European in style take and that small oval brass stud on the hilt it reminds me of these. The ferrule also shows similar line work as the hilt on the right. The design on the blade seems to resemble the lotus form seen on many katars. The birds head is a stylized peacock form. On the other hand Let me do a 180 degree on this and this could be French in origin the bird could be a grouse which would make this a hunting piece?

[Tim Simmons]

Great fun Lew. I am going to hit straight back with this. The new book "Panga na visu. Manfred A Zirngibl & Alexander Kubetz. Which has the similarity in form? while I look for more. Does not look like Indonesian engraving to me.

[Lew]

Tim good shot but notice the cross guard on your example is thin sheet metal where the one in question has been hot rolled or formed to shape. Here is a 18th century French hunting sword. My guess now is that the piece in question is a trousse knife from a set used for hunting. I am pretty sure there was a strong French influence in that part of Africa the piece you posted definately has a strong European style to it.

[Jim McDougall]

I go with Tim on this....the blade with a latchback, stepped distal end and with very unusual rebated point resembles Dahomean weapons (often of the ceremonial form shown by Tim in last post) and often termed 'hwi' (as described in Palau Marti). The geometric motif resembles symbolism that seems familiar in West African material culture, along with seems to possibly represent a snake head ? The python was a key figure in the folk religions there.
There seems an almost undefined similarity in the highly stylized pommel to the mysterious and equally highly stylized pommel of the flyssa. This however does seem more like a birdhead, while that of the flyssa seems to be perhaps, as sometimes suggested, a camel. In any case, the diffusion of these themes between Saharan and West African cultures via trade route traffic is pretty well established.

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by LOUIEBLADES

Tim good shot but notice the cross guard on your example is thin sheet metal where the one in question has been hot rolled or formed to shape. Here is a 18th century French hunting sword. My guess now is that the piece in question is a trousse knife from a set used for hunting. I am pretty sure there was a strong French influence in that part of Africa the piece you posted definately has a strong European style to it.

Just saw this....well reasoned suggestion....the rounded blade on this does resemble something seen in European hunting trousse, and with the prevalent European presence colonially in these West African regions certainly would present potential for such case.

[yuanzhumin]

This is not my usual field of expertise but one thing stroke me: the ressemblance of the pattern on the blade of this hunting knife with the traditional pattern of the ancestor snake on the Paiwan swords from Taiwan. As Jim mentioned, this could well be an African python.
If you go to my recent post about a Paiwan knife on Ebay, I'm sure that when looking at the snake on the scabbard, you will see what I mean. I don't think this kind of pattern would be found on a French hunting knife but for sure it could be on an African hunting knife with a strong colonial french influence. Or, even, it could be also an authentic French hunting knife that would have travelled to Africa with its original owner before being passed to a local owner that could have added some design of its own. Just my guess.

[Lew]

The lotus symbol seems to be a form of The Fleur-de-Lis the snake often represents civil war or rebellion against the king in French culture. I am still leaning towards a French hunting trousse. The iron work seems far too good on the guard to be West African. Here is an example of an 18th century French trousse notice the lotus design on the blade at the left and the birds head pommel on the one on the right.

[Tim Simmons]

Yes I can see a slight resemblance to the round end hunting/table knives. However I just cannot see this in anyway made to the taste of the more affluent {European cultural origin} people that would use elaborate hunting knives. The engraving to me is just not right. Something about it reminds me of the engraving seen on Nigerian arm knives with the brass scabbards and brass arm band.
I have to admit the second heavier quillon is very European looking. But I cannot see it as any more sophisticated than much familiar African work. I have a few more pictures. Although the pommels end here with is a lion? head. The form and construction of the handles have a lot in common especially the ferrule before the quillions. They are even decorated in the same manner. As a Benin knife it would be top quality and to me it looks very awkward as European work. What ever it is I like it and good fun thrashing it out.

The pictures are from- black background "De fer et de fierte" Jan Elsen, musse Barbier-Mueller. The other "Seltene Afrikanische Kurzwaffen" Manfred A Zirngibl.

[Lew]

Tim

The piece on the left is of European manufacture and has been embellished tribally. So it is possible that the knife we are discussing was engraved in Africa but it's original manufature was done in Europe.

[RSWORD]

Lew,

Keep in mind that the crossguard could be European made but added to this African piece as recycled parts. Notice that the guard and ferrule are nice iron/steel while the pommel nut seems a bit more crude and brass. I suspect these steel components are salvaged or recycled parts from a European piece of sorts and utilized to enhance this African ceremonial piece.

[G. McCormack]

tricky! This does not feel African in my opinion. The quillons (esp. the treatment of the smaller, thinner one), the button on the hilt, and the treatment of the tang button all point towards a european manufacture in my mind- odd hunting trousse piece is my guess.

[David]

It doesn't feel African to me either and the iron work, engraving and other aspects of this blade are of a quality that surpasses most African work i've seen.

[Tim Simmons]

Could be that there is more African work to see?

[asomotif]

I am with Tim for the moment.

That, or otherwise maybe a scandinavia butterknife

But what is the size of the piece ?
Chregu, can you advise the dimensions ?

Danke & Gruesse
Willem

[katana]

Interesting thread, my first reaction is that it is a Indian colonial piece. I agree with Lew, in that the pommel head looks to be a Peacock. The ferule (silver ?) also looks Asian (India / SEA?). The engraving is more tricky, but still lean towards Asia. The rest definately looks European.

Regards David

[A. G. Maisey]

Since this knife was first posted for discussion I have looked at photos and drawings of a great number of knives.

I have only seen one knife that shares some of this knife's features, and that is a French knife designed to (probably) cut candy.

May I ask:-

1)--- how thick is the ricasso?

2)--- how thick is the raised section of the back?

3)--- what is the form of the edge of raised section of the back --- is it flat, or rounded or sharpened?

4)--- what is the cutting edge geometry, ie, the angle of grind?

5)--- geometry again:- what is the nature of the distal taper, ie, the taper from ricasso to point

Thank you.

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by RSWORD

Lew,

Keep in mind that the crossguard could be European made but added to this African piece as recycled parts. Notice that the guard and ferrule are nice iron/steel while the pommel nut seems a bit more crude and brass. I suspect these steel components are salvaged or recycled parts from a European piece of sorts and utilized to enhance this African ceremonial piece.

Extremely pertinant suggestion here by Rick, I have seen many examples of unusual weapons etc. refurbished in African context using components much in this manner, often with surprising results. I think that these 'amalgams' often strain our 'forensics' to the limit but the discussions are truly a learning experience for all.

[Tim Simmons]

Would be a shame to drop this so quickly. Alan is right some more views would be most helpful. There was a brass tack for an eye, brass tacks also seen on eastern work but is this middle eastern or Asian?

Looking closely at the engraving and I am now convinced this is not European work, most certainly not for the wealthy type who would have fancy knives?

You can see by the shadow at the bottom of the picture that this is a slim blade and I will suggest that there is no back, more or less the same thickness all along the blade? Okay for a table knife but not very grand for hunting. There are no sizes given but if your hand is on the handle you can make a fair guess as to size.

[A. G. Maisey]

Tim, when I first saw this, and before any comments were made, I had a flash of Central European --- Austrian, Hungarian, Polish.

No logical basis for this, just a feeling.

I've seen that double guard arrangement somewhere, but I can't remember where. I've been through all the books I have available, and that took me a couple of nights. The only knife I could find that had any sort of similarity to this was in the Hollander cutlery collection, and that was a French knife for cutting candy. The raised section on the back of the French knife was for taking the blows needed to drive the blade through hard candy.

When all we can see is just the outline of the knife, without knowing the geometry of the blade, its size and so on, it seems to me to be too big an ask to be able to say what it is.

I agree that the engraving does not look typically Western European, but I cannot find any similar engraving amongst the African examples I've looked at, either.

I guess a couple of years down the track somebody will be able to enlighten us all, and we'll find out that its a knife used by farmers in Central Slobovia for sectioning sides of Slobovian sausage --- or something.

Something that should be considered is the fact that it appears to have a full tang going right through the hilt and anchored at the pommel with a nut, or perhaps piened over. You do not use this construction on a knife unless it is intended to withstand some pretty heavy work. For light usage, a stub tang set in adhesive is good enough. Nope, this is designed as a serious tool. But for what, and from where?

I reckon that the engraving was done prior to heat treat, which means the engraving was done during manufacture, not after. Heat treated steel is too hard for simple manual engraving. So whoever made the thing also arranged, or did, the engraving.

[katana]

Can't help but think that with the rounded tip, the raised spine on the final half of the blade (making it more 'tip' heavy)....that this is more of a 'chopper' / cutter. I also noticed that the pommel 'nut' is very much 'off centre' It also seems that the 'bird' head has lost his 'eye'. (circular indentation....perhaps some sort of stud)

Chregu, you really need to provide the dimensions (as mentioned by others) and also whether there are any other markings.....If the ferrule is silver.....there could be hallmarks.

Regards David

.

[chregu]

hallo

many thanks for all your reply and suggestions. It's incredibly interesting to follow your diskus ions. Unfortunately, my English is not understood so well at all (must take the translation program to help).
this knife is not in my possession, it will next time look better and measured.
until then, many thanks to you.
gruss Chregu

[Jim McDougall]

Yuanzhumin, I wanted to thank you for acknowledging my suggestion on the African python, and your support of the observation...indeed very much appreciated.
This really is an intriguing dilemma in discussing this item, and I have been going through notes and resources at hand trying to locate that stylized geometric on the blade.
I am posting a page from an important article on the kaskara, "Kaskara from Northern Darfur, Sudan", by Graham Reed (JAAS, Vol.XII, #3, March, 1987) and in plate LV (a) you will see a remarkably similar pattern, and in (d) you will see a snake, which presumably would be a python.

In the article, the author notes that in these regions the python is termed 'assala', and this would likely be the species 'python sebae' which is found widely across sub-Saharan Africa.

It would seem the linear diamond pattern may suggest the pattern in the skin of the snake. While this motif is clearly far from West Africa in this case, it is important to remember the trade routes that profusely crisscrossed African regions, and which diffused all manner of material culture and thought.
The snake, particularly the python, was prominant in animist folk religion and superstition in Africa, and in Dahomey (now Benin) in West Africa the serpent in thier mythology was known as 'Dan'. In its supernatural perspective, this serpent (typically considered a python) supported all on its many coils.

Having considered the nature of these markings, and returning to the apparant features of this knife, I have become compelled to agree with the distinctly European feel for its elements. While it is agreed that African artisans were extremely skilled in producing impressive metalwork, it does not seem that they followed inherent European features in the detail seen here.
For example, the beaded section in the upper guard center, and the inscribed bands in the ferrule. I should point out that these parallel crossguards it seems are found on a number of hirschfangers often of 18th century, most often German and French. The redundant guard feature is also something that occurs in Spanish colonial weapons of the early 19th century.

The oval stud in the wood grip, again very much corresponding to European hunting weapons. The capstan, distinctly European.

With that, it is important to note that while African artisans were certainly adept at producing outstanding work, the 19th century had many regions in Africa increasingly colonized, and certainly there were European armourers and smiths present in some degree. The ultra stlylized zoomorphic head in the pommel of this item as I mentioned earlier, somewhat recalls that seen on the flyssa. The amalgam of components seen here reflect cross cultural influences which were likely the result of trade, colonization and probably diplomatic matters.

Perhaps this was indeed in a European style trousse fashioned as a gift or presentation to a West African chief or dignitary, and inscribed with this motif to recognize thier symbolism. In further note, the inscribed motif at the forte seems very much European in application.

[Rick]

My one observation is that the workmanship seems a bit crude for European manufacture .

Look at the engraved rings on the ferrule; a European smith (in the era we're speaking of) would probably have not let that ferrule out the shop door .

The Apprentice who did the work might have been dismissed also .

So I'd guess there is not much of European manufacture here; maybe the button, tack and lower crossguard .

Africa gets my vote for now ..

Best,
Rick

[Tim Simmons]

I have to ask what is so technically beyond African metal work. Benin would have continuous European contact but above all highly skilled court artists. Look at the work in these links-
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=12015
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...light=trumbash

These would be like the back woods compared to Benin.

I could bring up many examples from the archive of the most excellent African work.

[Jim McDougall]

While the focus on whether the work is European or African continues, and as my observations concerning that perspective are irrelevant, I have posted again here the markings which I think are interesting. I was having some technical difficulty in attaching in previous post, so wanted to be sure it was seen by those interested in markings.

[Jim McDougall]

518 hits so far, nice!!!!

[Rick]

Got tired of going up and down the page ..

Figure A .

[yuanzhumin]

Because I mentioned the Paiwan snake pattern in this thread before, I thought that it could be useful to have an idea of what I meant. Here is a graphic that could be of interest, showing how the patterns can be highly stylicised among the Paiwan, as it could be among other tribal groups. Diamond patterns, triangle patterns… all of them symbolizing the snake.