Keris Sundang Melayu

VVV · 28th August 2008, 07:52 PM

Am I correct that this one is Peninsular Malay (based on hilt and sheath)?
If so I would appreciate comments from those who know more about it as this is my first one of this variation.

Michael

PenangsangII · 29th August 2008, 03:42 AM

I think it's peninsular's too, not only because of the perabut but also the blade. But the inscription on the blade suggests it's not peninsular aesthetic

Alam Shah · 29th August 2008, 07:08 AM

Here's mine... blade have some similarities, but hilt is different.
Any idea what is the hilt material? Hilt style from which region?

VVV · 29th August 2008, 10:07 AM

It seems as if Shahrial's sundang also has a blade motif resembling mine?
I haven't seen it on the few documented Malay sundang I have in books.

On the material mine is brass and another kind of wood than what is usually seen on Moro kris.
I like your hilt. It reminds me about this one that we have discussed before.

Michael

Battara · 30th August 2008, 01:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Alam Shah

Here's mine... blade have some similarities, but hilt is different.
Any idea what is the hilt material? Hilt style from which region?

It looks like horn, probably rhino horn to me.

Battara · 30th August 2008, 01:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PenangsangII

I think it's peninsular's too, not only because of the perabut but also the blade. But the inscription on the blade suggests it's not peninsular aesthetic

You are right, the engraving looks Moro. There were Moros who early on landed on the coast of the the peninsula and thus this could be the origin of the motif on this Malay piece.

BluErf · 6th September 2008, 10:22 AM

The greneng and kembang kacang form certainly does not look Moro. This could be a Malay Sundang from N. Borneo/Kalimantan.

I have this interesting piece, which you may have seen before -> A very long Bugis sepokal keris with sundang features, in a Sulawesi dress. Note the engraving at the base of the blade. Provides more anecdotal insight into spread of the Moro kris in the Malay world.

Alam Shah · 6th September 2008, 05:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BluErf

The greneng and kembang kacang form certainly does not look Moro. This could be a Malay Sundang from N. Borneo/Kalimantan.

... Provides more anecdotal insight into spread of the Moro kris in the Malay world.

I agree with you on the possibility of Borneo/Kalimantan...

For more pics, please see (( here )).

VVV · 7th September 2008, 07:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BluErf

The greneng and kembang kacang form certainly does not look Moro. This could be a Malay Sundang from N. Borneo/Kalimantan.

I have this interesting piece, which you may have seen before -> A very long Bugis sepokal keris with sundang features, in a Sulawesi dress. Note the engraving at the base of the blade. Provides more anecdotal insight into spread of the Moro kris in the Malay world.

Please clarify if you mean that it's mine, Shahrial's or both keris that could be either N Borneo or Kalimantan?
I haven't seen any large kris like this from Kalimantan?
And why do you think it's N. Borneo?

Your Bugis sundang is really interesting. As you know there are people claiming that the keris sundang originated in Sulawesi...

Michael

PenangsangII · 7th September 2008, 10:13 AM

I agree with the idea that kris sundang originationg from bugis land (that could include Borneo)

BluErf · 7th September 2008, 02:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by VVV

Please clarify if you mean that it's mine, Shahrial's or both keris that could be either N Borneo or Kalimantan?
I haven't seen any large kris like this from Kalimantan?
And why do you think it's N. Borneo?

Your Bugis sundang is really interesting. As you know there are people claiming that the keris sundang originated in Sulawesi...

Michael

Hi Michael,

Both krises are likely to have originated from N Borneo.

N. Borneo is quite close to the Sulu islands, which would be part of the Moro lands. So it is likely that there are some cross-overs in krises. There is a Malay sundang in the Asian Civilisations Museum which had a Malay style sheath (square sampir), attributed to N. Borneo. Unfortunately, I do not have my own pictures of it to share.

I just noticed that amongst the sundangs that have a Malay attribution, they are more likely to have the ron dha motif in the greneng, and the kembang kacang is longer and more pleasing than the Moro counterparts. There is also a trend that they are slightly smaller than the krises from the northern Moro lands. You can probably call this a difference in aesthetics.

I have not heard of the Bugis/Sundang attribution though, and apart from this weird piece of mine, I have not seen other examples. If the sundang originated from Sulawesi, where're the surviving examples?

VVV · 7th September 2008, 06:03 PM

Hi Kai Wee,

From what I have seen of Sabah and Brunei kris suluk they look the same as the "regular" Moro kris?
Do you have any additional references than the sundang in the Asian Civilisations Museum?
My keris sundang, the one in the first post, is much smaller than a regular moro kris. It's hanging on my wall next to a Coteng with Pandai Saras (see Krisdisk 10:33) and they have same size.
On the idea that the keris sundang comes from Sulawesi I first read it in Taman Indera, p. 133.

Michael

Battara · 8th September 2008, 02:57 AM

Bluerf, there may be a miss communication. I did not say that the kris in question is Moro, but that the okir style on the blade looks Moro. My point on the Moro going to other places is another source of the cross pollination. Many Moros in Sabah. In fact, at one time Sabah was once part of the Sulu Sultanate.

Also, would you show a close up of the Bugis keris buntut please?

BluErf · 8th September 2008, 05:05 PM

Hi Michael,

The degree of similarity would indeed be quite high given the proximity of N Borneo with Sulu and Mindanao, and I won't even rule out the possibility of blades travelling from one area to another. However, my observations had been that the Malay sundang tend to be smaller (the size of a large pandai saras is not out of question, though they shd be slightly larger than that) and have features closer to other kerises (e.g. the execution of the kembang kacang, the greneng, the ganja). We would need to look more closely at the base of the blade to see the differences.

Of the other examples I can remember, I have seen one that went through Adni very recently. Perhaps he can provide some photos, if the new owner would permit. I think that would be a perfect example for discussion. There is also another example in Paul de Souza's collection. There was another specimen on ebay quite a long while back, snagged by someone with the ID "Amisar" (whoever he is); that was a fantastic example. And if memory serves me right, Dave Henkel has one too, and in similar sandang walikat sheath too.

BluErf · 8th September 2008, 05:17 PM

Hi Battara,

Actually, when I posted my reply, I have not read your post yet. Sorry about that!

I was responding to Michael's post about some people believing that the sundang originated from Sulawesi.

I don't have a picture of the buntut dead on, so I'll just post one cropped from a larger picture. Actually, it's quite plain, with some semi-circular engravings. Quite crude actually.

28th August 2008, 07:52 PM	#1
VVV Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Sweden Posts: 1,637	Keris Sundang Melayu Am I correct that this one is Peninsular Malay (based on hilt and sheath)? If so I would appreciate comments from those who know more about it as this is my first one of this variation. Michael Attached Images

29th August 2008, 07:08 AM	#3
Alam Shah Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Singapore Posts: 1,248	my keris sundang Here's mine... blade have some similarities, but hilt is different. Any idea what is the hilt material? Hilt style from which region? Attached Images

29th August 2008, 10:07 AM	#4
VVV Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Sweden Posts: 1,637	It seems as if Shahrial's sundang also has a blade motif resembling mine? I haven't seen it on the few documented Malay sundang I have in books. On the material mine is brass and another kind of wood than what is usually seen on Moro kris. I like your hilt. It reminds me about this one that we have discussed before. Michael Attached Images

6th September 2008, 10:22 AM	#7
BluErf Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Singapore Posts: 1,180	The greneng and kembang kacang form certainly does not look Moro. This could be a Malay Sundang from N. Borneo/Kalimantan. I have this interesting piece, which you may have seen before -> A very long Bugis sepokal keris with sundang features, in a Sulawesi dress. Note the engraving at the base of the blade. Provides more anecdotal insight into spread of the Moro kris in the Malay world. Attached Images

8th September 2008, 05:17 PM	#15
BluErf Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Singapore Posts: 1,180	Hi Battara, Actually, when I posted my reply, I have not read your post yet. Sorry about that! I was responding to Michael's post about some people believing that the sundang originated from Sulawesi. I don't have a picture of the buntut dead on, so I'll just post one cropped from a larger picture. Actually, it's quite plain, with some semi-circular engravings. Quite crude actually. Attached Images

29th August 2008, 03:42 AM	#2
PenangsangII Member Join Date: Jun 2007 Posts: 401	I think it's peninsular's too, not only because of the perabut but also the blade. But the inscription on the blade suggests it's not peninsular aesthetic

7th September 2008, 10:13 AM	#10
PenangsangII Member Join Date: Jun 2007 Posts: 401	I agree with the idea that kris sundang originationg from bugis land (that could include Borneo)

7th September 2008, 06:03 PM	#12
VVV Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Sweden Posts: 1,637	Hi Kai Wee, From what I have seen of Sabah and Brunei kris suluk they look the same as the "regular" Moro kris? Do you have any additional references than the sundang in the Asian Civilisations Museum? My keris sundang, the one in the first post, is much smaller than a regular moro kris. It's hanging on my wall next to a Coteng with Pandai Saras (see Krisdisk 10:33) and they have same size. On the idea that the keris sundang comes from Sulawesi I first read it in Taman Indera, p. 133. Michael

8th September 2008, 02:57 AM	#13
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,229	Bluerf, there may be a miss communication. I did not say that the kris in question is Moro, but that the okir style on the blade looks Moro. My point on the Moro going to other places is another source of the cross pollination. Many Moros in Sabah. In fact, at one time Sabah was once part of the Sulu Sultanate. Also, would you show a close up of the Bugis keris buntut please?

8th September 2008, 05:05 PM	#14
BluErf Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Singapore Posts: 1,180	Hi Michael, The degree of similarity would indeed be quite high given the proximity of N Borneo with Sulu and Mindanao, and I won't even rule out the possibility of blades travelling from one area to another. However, my observations had been that the Malay sundang tend to be smaller (the size of a large pandai saras is not out of question, though they shd be slightly larger than that) and have features closer to other kerises (e.g. the execution of the kembang kacang, the greneng, the ganja). We would need to look more closely at the base of the blade to see the differences. Of the other examples I can remember, I have seen one that went through Adni very recently. Perhaps he can provide some photos, if the new owner would permit. I think that would be a perfect example for discussion. There is also another example in Paul de Souza's collection. There was another specimen on ebay quite a long while back, snagged by someone with the ID "Amisar" (whoever he is); that was a fantastic example. And if memory serves me right, Dave Henkel has one too, and in similar sandang walikat sheath too.