What are "Ethnographic Weapons?"

[Bill M]

Is this Forum to discuss only weapons that are made to slice, dice, bruise, break bones, puncture --- or protect the wearer like armor and shields?

Or can we also discuss more metaphysical weapons that the makers and users thought would protect them from the spirits?

In many animistic cultures spiritual weapons and those who wielded them were as --- sometimes more --- important than the warriors with physical blades. The powerful and successful warrior was the one who could fight both physical and spiritual malignant spirits as well as handle unhappy ancestors.

Phurbas we cover.

What about other spirit daggers? Masks? Puas? Naga headbaskets?

Weapon Symbolism? Questions like why are there representations of Nagas - Dragon Snakes on blades? Javanese, Balinese and Madurese -- as well as other keris and kris have very metaphysical roots. Concepts and uses that go far beyond poking holes in people.

For years I have been wanting to know more about these marvelous pieces. The study of metal and shape -- while quite interesting -- only takes me so far. I want to know more. I want to study both, but only studying the metallurgical aspects is dry fare to me.

We have a wonderful and incredible cross-section of the world on this Forum. Resources I never dreamed possible. I would like to know more.

I realize this would need to be handled with care and respect of other peoples' cultures and religions, but I think that this could be done. For the most part people on this Forum, while certainly speaking their minds, do respect each other.

I also realize that the ideas and concepts of "primitive" tribes may leave us, with modern technological understanding, seeing them as superstitious and backwards, but THEY believe certain things and I would like ot know more about WHAT they belive and WHY?

Whole cultures are dying out as they accept our weapons, technology, medicine, religion and financial cultures. I'd like to know more before they are gone.

Isn't this a big part of what we are trying to understand in our studies of "Ethnographic Weapons?" How can you really know the weapons we study unless we know about the people who created them?

If this does not appeal to the broad sense of people here, could we have a sub-forum?

[VVV]

I am on.

But I haven't had the impression that we were restricted to physical weapons on this forum?

Michael

[Andrew]

Years ago on the EEWRS main page, Lee defined "Ethnographic Edged Weapon" as:

For the purposes of this site, an ethnographic edged weapon is a weapon other than the standardized military models of the past few centuries and is likely a product of an individual artisan working according to traditional patterns as opposed to a product of modern mass industrial production. Militaria is thereby excluded by definition. Modern custom knives would qualify as an artifact of our own "culture", but will not be considered here, as they are better represented elsewhere.

That definition has broadened, as has the scope of this forum. Note the forum itself became "Ethnographic Arms and Armour Forum" when we changed to the new format.

While the primary focus here remains consistant with Lee's original statement, discussion of pretty much any weapon short of modern firearms, will be considered on-topic. Logically related topics, such as martial arts and, indeed, spiritual and ritual beliefs associated with the weapons are, likewise, on-topic.

[Jens Nordlunde]

Hi Bill,

Interesting question you bring up. I am interested in the same, when it comes to Indian weapons, but the information’s are far apart and very seldom found in books on weapons. Now and again pieces of information can be found, in books written by anthropologists or in books written by travellers, and in many of the places, where the symbols were used, the meanings are now forgotten.

In the book The Agaria (Oxford University Press, 1942) the author Verrier Elwin tells about the Agarian clan, and about one of the tribes. The Agarians were a clan of smiths living in Deccan, and they used to burry a piece of iron in front of their house door, to keep bad spirits and illness from the house, and about one of the tribes the story goes (as I remember it). Many, many years ago the tribe was attacked by snakes and some died, so the old men decided that all snakes should be killed to punish them, until one day, one of the old men said, ‘maybe if we honour and respect the snakes, they will help and protect us’ – and so it was, from that day on, the snake was the tribes talismanic symbol, and no doubt used on their weapons and in other relations. Have a look at the prehistoric cave paintings, showing animals, which the tribe either hunted or had chosen for their totem.

When it comes to the more ‘modern’ time, the weapons we are collecting, I think some of the very old symbols are still used, together with ‘newer’ symbols, like maybe floral symbols, as not everything used was only for decoration, a lot had a symbolic value, but it is hard to prove which is which. Maybe one day when one of the very old Sanskrit books, not yet translated, have been translated – the veil will be lifted, for at least part of the puzzle.

When i come to think of it, the stones used for decoration were not only used for their decorative value - at least many of them, also had a symbolic meaning.

[VANDOO]

I AGREE THAT THE BELIEFS OF THE MORE PRIMATIVE SOCIETYS PLAYED AN IMPORTANT PART IN ALL FACETS OF THEIR LIVES. THEY DICTATED ALMOST EVERY THING IN THEIR SOCIETIES, THE TABOOS AND SUPERSTITIONS AND RITUALS WERE BOTH THEIR LAW AND SCIENCE. SCIENCE IS A BIG WORD BUT ALL IT REALLY MEANS IS THE ATTEMPTS OF US POOR HUMANS TO FIGURE OUT HOW THINGS WORK. WE HAVE MANY BRANCHES OF SCIENCE FOR STUDIENG DIFFERENT THINGS IN OUR WORLD AND IN THE UNIVERSE BUT STILL HAVE A LONG WAY TO GO BEFORE WE GET IT ALL FIGURED OUT.
I LOOK AT SUPERSTITION, MAGIC AND RELATED BELIEFS AS EARLY WAYS MANKIND TRIED TO FIGURE OUT HOW THINGS WORKED AND MADE RULES THAT WOULD SERVE TO PROTECT THEIR TRIBE FROM THE FORCES OF NATURE AND THEIR ENEMYS.
WARRIORS WOULD TAKE A ANIMAL THEY FEARED OR RESPECTED AS A SPIRIT ,TOTUM OR GARDIAN FOR THEIR TRIBE OR THEMSELVES. IF THEY COULD KILL OR FIND A PART OF SUCH AN ANIMAL THEY WOULD KEEP IT HOPEING TO GET SOME OF ITS POWERS. SUCH SUPERSTITION AND BELIEFS WERE USUALLY ASSOCIATED WITH DANGEROUS ANIMALS THAT WERE OFTEN MEAT EATERS. BUT OTHER DANGEROUS GAME ANIMALS SUCH AS ELEPHANT,RHINO AND BUFFALOW WERE ALSO RESPECTED AND HONORED. TAILSMEN WOULD HAVE BEEN MADE FROM BOTH TYPES OF ANIMALS. WARRIORS AND HUNTERS USUALLY WANTED THIS KIND OF MAGIC AND WOULD HAVE HAD SOME SORT OF TAILSMAN PERHAPS A CLAW, FANG OR A SMALL CARVEING OR PICTURE IN THEIR GEAR. MANY SOCIETIES ALSO PLACED MUCH IMPORTANCE ON KILLING SUCH AN ANIMAL AND TO BECOME A WARRIOR AND TAKE A WIFE IT WAS REQUIRED. OTHER SOCIETIES REQUIRED THE KILLING OF A MEMBER OF A ENEMY TRIBE TO GAIN WARRIOR STATUS AND PRIVELEGES. SO HEAD HUNTING, CANNABALISM AND OTHER PRACTICES EVOLVED FROM THESE CUSTOMS. THIS SORT OF MAGIC WAS TO GAIN THE ANIMALS OR WARRIORS POWER AND THE AND PROTECTION OF THE SPIRIT OF THE ANIMAL OR THE ENEMY.

MYSTERIOUS ANIMALS WERE ALSO BELIEVED TO HAVE SPECIAL POWERS SO MANY SUPERSTITIONS WERE BASED ON SNAKES, CROCODILES,TURTLES, BATS AND OTHER ANIMALS. NOCTURNAL AND MARINE ANIMALS WERE OFTEN MYSTERIOUS TO TRIBAL PEOPLE BECAUSE IT WAS DIFFICULT TO SEE THEM OR HOW THEY LIVED. A SHAMAN OR CHIEF MIGHT HAVE TAILSMAN FOR THIS KIND OF ANIMAL . THESE TWO SORTS OF BELIEF AND MAGIC WOULD MOSTLY BE ASSOCIATED WITH WEAPONS, WARFARE AND HUNTING.
THERE WERE ALSO MANY BELIEFS HAVING TO DO WITH ELEMENTS(EARTH,AIR,FIRE,WATER), FERTILITY,HARVEST,RAIN ECT. THERE WAS ALSO MAGIC TO PROTECT THE VILLAGE AND ITS PEOPLE FROM EVIL SPIRITS WHICH IN MANY INSTANCES CAME IN THE FORM OF SICKNESS. NOT UNDERSTANDING GERMS OR DISEASE THESE THINGS WERE BLAMED ON EVIL SPIRITS. JUST A FEW THOUGHTS ON HOW IT MUST HAVE BEEN AND STILL IS TO A CERTIAN EXTENT IN PARTS OF TODAYS WORLD.

[Tim Simmons]

I feel this is a more important aspect of collecting the more "ethnic" horrible word but you will know what I mean, of ethnographic weapons collecting. I have said this before "not what it is but why it is what it is" is more interesting than how big, hard and sharp it is, though that does have a basic appeal. To wander too far from weapons would be a mistake here in my opinion. To not really know about the items in there original context is not learning and the worst aspect of collecting. I think some allowance is granted to us to show a small amount of culturally relevant additional material. When it happens I find it often more knowledgeable than many specialist forms. All adding to make this a mine of information, a friendly place to spend enjoyable time instead of letting the television turn you mad.

[Jim McDougall]

Great topic Bill!
This is exactly what most of us here have been focused on doing with the weapons we study here, and Jens has posted an excellent example of how totemic or talismanic qualities of for example, snakes, have become symbolic motif. The application of totemic or animist symbolism on weapons has been known since prehistoric times, and we have had so many brilliant discussions on them here that it is hard to really name them all, but I think Vandoo and Jens have expressed well placed observations covering this.

One of the greatest obstacles has of course always been certain hypersensitivity in discussing religious or geopolitical factors that are inherent in various cultures and though they play a key role in symbolism on the weapons, the discussions have almost always digressed into unfortunate tirades. It has always been my opinion, as someone who remains fascinated with all cultures and always desperately trying to learn more about them, that if everyone would only try to understand other cultures and allow each other the right to thier own beliefs, there would be less fighting and tragedy in this world. Idealistic, to be sure, but it is what I believe...and I will emphasize here that I speak for myself only, before any crossfire evolves

I think that as Andrew has noted, most types of arms and armour, and often even various items of ethnographic material culture, are distinctively pertinant to the study of the edged weapons of these cultures. As Jens has often noted, the symbolism found in decorative motif would seem to carry important clues in identifying the provenance of weapons. Important symbolism pertaining to religious beliefs has been shown of utmost importance as has been shown in Robert Elgood's outstanding "Hindu Arms and Ritual", one of the first arms books I am aware of that carries focus on that particular topic.
There has been a large degree of specious debate over the use of the term Islamic Arms in the titles of books on these weapons saying that the term is improperly applied and inadequate as a description. Debates over weapons terminology has also been an endless stumbling block in studying ethnographic edged weapons, with semantics, transliteration and local variation causing most of the misunderstandings. It would seem that there has been a large degree of 'misapplication' in describing weapons in the history of arms study, but using terms that are colloquially understood (collectors terms) seem better left in place for the purpose of discussion.

Even military regulation weapons are considered pertinant in our study of ethnographic weapons, as has been seen with countless native weapons using either captured or trade components from colonizing powers.
We once had a great discussion on Scottish basket hilts, and whether they were considered 'ethnographic'. Absolutely! A topic dear to my heart!!
The Scottish clans were indeed 'tribal' as clans are essentially a tribal unit.

Even the U.S. has an indiginous 'ethnographic' weapon! In my opinion, the famed Bowie knife would fall distinctly in this category

My thoughts,

All the best,
Jim