18th Century Naval Sword Russian Polish? with anchors ? ID help

theswordcollector · 16th January 2016, 04:12 PM

Hello fellow collectors. Could anyone help ID this Naval sword I have? I purchased it many years ago with a naval collection but am unable to identify it for some time. The blade has a tilted anchor on both sides but there is no visible makers mark possibly obscure due to oxidation. I thought because of the hilt design this sword maybe Polish or Russian but I may be wrong ? , as the hilt is very similar to Polish period swords, but I am really not sure? If anyone has idea I would be grateful for information.The blade is 65.5cm or 25 3/4 inches long. The total length of the sword without the scabbard is 79 cm or 31 inches. The guard has 2 period or very old holes drilled as does the scabbard possibly for mounting an award or device or some other reason? like seen on Russian swords. It is a nice old war horse and has allot of wear, I hope some one out there or a fellow collector knows this model or has some input. Thank you :-)

CutlassCollector · 16th January 2016, 04:47 PM

Hi,

The blade is a close match to the French 1801 cutlass in shape and length. The large rounded anchor was added from 1803 and was in the early years diagonal across the blade. I'm not sure in what year the anchor became straight on the blade but it is much more common than the diagonal position.

According to Gilkerson this model of cutlass was copied by various other countries including Russia, not sure that would include the anchor though, so could possibly still be French fitted to new hilt?

CC

CutlassCollector · 24th January 2016, 08:37 PM

I thought I would bump this up as I am fairly sure this is another French Cutlass blade which found a new life.
It goes well with the barnyard saber find in the more recent thread.
CC

ulfberth · 24th January 2016, 11:05 PM

Hello,

the hilt is or is the same as a French infantry off sword of the Imperial Guards
as far as I know they did no use this in the French Navy.
The two holes in the langet is were the silver Napoleon head used to be.
The blade is as CC said the blade of a French troopers sabre d'abordage model 1811.

kind regards

Ulfbert

M ELEY · 25th January 2016, 01:23 AM

Hello CC. Didn't see this until now. Not much to add but conjecture. Both the cavalry style hilt and naval blade were contemporaries from the same period. They appear to likewise be a contemporary melding, not done many years later. Both have a nice, even patina and are fitted well, not some slipshod blacksmith job. I would propose that this assembly might have been made from spare parts as a private purchase piece for a merchantman or privateer. Yes, I know somewhere, there is a sigh of 'not this pirate stuff again from him!', but it does make sense Private purchase were always cast-offs, one-offs or older models reissued for later use. They were used in times of war (this piece nicely fitting into the Napoleonic period) and made at the cheapest cost. The look of this one would have been very appealing to an officer, but it could just as easily been one of a small batch. Common sense tells us an infantryman would never want an anchor on his sword blade, whereas private navies, who had no specific dress code, wouldn't mind the brass hilt and fine (by their standards) styling. I guess I just see maritime in everything!

Mark

Jim McDougall · 25th January 2016, 02:49 AM

Mark, you should never discount your observations which reflect astutely thinking 'outside the box' in the often vaguely understood topic of maritime esoterica.
Remember some years ago, and our brass hilt Wooley & Deakin sabres with the fluted ebony grips (1800-1803). While these were often identified as British cavalry swords in the 1970s, examples of these were by Durs Egg who notably produced for the navy.

"...cavalry swords have exercised considerable influence over naval weapons in many countries and neither Britain nor America has been an exception. The stirrup hilt popular in British naval circles from the late 1790s was taken from a cavalry original, together with the slightly curved blade with its single broad fuller. The development took place in the last quarter of the 18th c. and it is interesting to note that a similar development took place in France at about the same time. As a result some American naval officers wore swords which were derived from both British and French cavalry patterns".
"Naval Swords", P.G.W. Annis, 1970 p.13

As noted by CC, the Russians copied French patterns often profoundly.

While this hilt as Ulfberth points out is pretty much the French infantry pattern, that blade certainly appears of cutlass form and heavier than the pandour point infantry versions. ....the anchor itself not withstanding.

ulfberth · 25th January 2016, 09:37 AM

The hilt sure looks French because of the holes in the langets were the Napoleon head was when used by the infantry officer.
Looking at the top of the guard were the tang was hammered, when these two became partners, it look this has been done a few hundred years ago.
I agree this is not a freshly composite sword for economical reasons, but from the looks of it this has been done in the early 19th century, of course this is hard to prove.
Now pure speculation + sound reasoning:
I someone wanted to make a composite with this guard it would be better to use a model 1821 infantry saber blade, there are more easy available and it looks a lot like the 1ste Empire infantry blade and the resale value would probably be better, lets not forget that most if not all composites fakes etc are made purely for financial reasons.
So, yes this could very well be a re use of spare parts at hand, however I don't think the sailor would have looked at the anchor first ( collectors might ) the fast broad blade and the balance would be the priority ( I would think )

kind regards
Ulfberth

kronckew · 25th January 2016, 10:22 AM

historical note:

hundreds of thousands of french and allied soldiers (and sailors) marched into russia and didn't come back. they would have left behind their weapons which likely have been scavenged or captured by the nearby locals or their armies.

after trafalgar, napoleon used a lot of sailors as artillerymen, and pioneers as they had essentially no ships they could be useful on.

napoleon was especially fond of his imperial marines who were part of his old guard and were used mostly as artillery crew ashore. he had a few survivors at waterloo. they used a much more curved clip point & yelmaned hanger with a very curved grip, a prominent anchor on the languet and two anchors either side pointing away from a cartouche enclosing the 'garde imperial' moniker, tho officers could carry their personal weapons. anyway, theswordcollector's one is not a marine's one.

ulfberth · 25th January 2016, 11:25 AM

This is the navel troopers sword used during the Napoleonic wars and after,
the sword you are showing is a reproduction of a sabre de Marine De La Garde Imperiale, also used after 1815.
So both were in use during the Napoleonic wars , as was the infantry model for it Guard a pied.

Kind regards
Ulfberth

kronckew · 25th January 2016, 11:49 AM

yes, a repro, but a good one. i can't afford a real one in that condition

i use it here just to show what they looked like.

CutlassCollector · 25th January 2016, 08:06 PM

I'm very hazy about sword hilts so thanks Ulfberth for identifying the hilt.

There seems to be agreement that the hilt and the blade are of the same time period and the condition of the tang button indicates that they have been paired for some time.
So I like Mark's sea going theory. You can imagine a merchant officer wanting a badge of authority to look more like a sword but still retaining the robustness of a cutlass and I guess wearing it on a frequent basis it would be more comfortable than having a 'soup ladle' banging against your hip all day!

I have found both these recent threads on cutlasses very interesting and enjoyable so thanks for posting guys.
CC.

16th January 2016, 04:12 PM	#1
theswordcollector Member Join Date: Oct 2012 Location: Berlin Posts: 48	18th Century Naval Sword Russian Polish? with anchors ? ID help Hello fellow collectors. Could anyone help ID this Naval sword I have? I purchased it many years ago with a naval collection but am unable to identify it for some time. The blade has a tilted anchor on both sides but there is no visible makers mark possibly obscure due to oxidation. I thought because of the hilt design this sword maybe Polish or Russian but I may be wrong ? , as the hilt is very similar to Polish period swords, but I am really not sure? If anyone has idea I would be grateful for information.The blade is 65.5cm or 25 3/4 inches long. The total length of the sword without the scabbard is 79 cm or 31 inches. The guard has 2 period or very old holes drilled as does the scabbard possibly for mounting an award or device or some other reason? like seen on Russian swords. It is a nice old war horse and has allot of wear, I hope some one out there or a fellow collector knows this model or has some input. Thank you :-) Attached Images

24th January 2016, 08:37 PM	#3
CutlassCollector Member Join Date: Jan 2013 Location: Scotland Posts: 330	Another French cutlass blade I thought I would bump this up as I am fairly sure this is another French Cutlass blade which found a new life. It goes well with the barnyard saber find in the more recent thread. CC

24th January 2016, 11:05 PM	#4
ulfberth Member Join Date: Jul 2014 Posts: 403	Hello, the hilt is or is the same as a French infantry off sword of the Imperial Guards as far as I know they did no use this in the French Navy. The two holes in the langet is were the silver Napoleon head used to be. The blade is as CC said the blade of a French troopers sabre d'abordage model 1811. kind regards Ulfbert Attached Images

25th January 2016, 10:22 AM	#8
kronckew Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Room 101, Glos. UK Posts: 4,184	historical note: hundreds of thousands of french and allied soldiers (and sailors) marched into russia and didn't come back. they would have left behind their weapons which likely have been scavenged or captured by the nearby locals or their armies. after trafalgar, napoleon used a lot of sailors as artillerymen, and pioneers as they had essentially no ships they could be useful on. napoleon was especially fond of his imperial marines who were part of his old guard and were used mostly as artillery crew ashore. he had a few survivors at waterloo. they used a much more curved clip point & yelmaned hanger with a very curved grip, a prominent anchor on the languet and two anchors either side pointing away from a cartouche enclosing the 'garde imperial' moniker, tho officers could carry their personal weapons. anyway, theswordcollector's one is not a marine's one. Attached Images Last edited by kronckew; 25th January 2016 at 10:37 AM.

25th January 2016, 11:25 AM	#9
ulfberth Member Join Date: Jul 2014 Posts: 403	This is the navel troopers sword used during the Napoleonic wars and after, the sword you are showing is a reproduction of a sabre de Marine De La Garde Imperiale, also used after 1815. So both were in use during the Napoleonic wars , as was the infantry model for it Guard a pied. Kind regards Ulfberth Attached Images

16th January 2016, 04:47 PM	#2
CutlassCollector Member Join Date: Jan 2013 Location: Scotland Posts: 330	Hi, The blade is a close match to the French 1801 cutlass in shape and length. The large rounded anchor was added from 1803 and was in the early years diagonal across the blade. I'm not sure in what year the anchor became straight on the blade but it is much more common than the diagonal position. According to Gilkerson this model of cutlass was copied by various other countries including Russia, not sure that would include the anchor though, so could possibly still be French fitted to new hilt? CC

25th January 2016, 01:23 AM	#5
M ELEY Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: NC, U.S.A. Posts: 2,101	Hello CC. Didn't see this until now. Not much to add but conjecture. Both the cavalry style hilt and naval blade were contemporaries from the same period. They appear to likewise be a contemporary melding, not done many years later. Both have a nice, even patina and are fitted well, not some slipshod blacksmith job. I would propose that this assembly might have been made from spare parts as a private purchase piece for a merchantman or privateer. Yes, I know somewhere, there is a sigh of 'not this pirate stuff again from him!', but it does make sense Private purchase were always cast-offs, one-offs or older models reissued for later use. They were used in times of war (this piece nicely fitting into the Napoleonic period) and made at the cheapest cost. The look of this one would have been very appealing to an officer, but it could just as easily been one of a small batch. Common sense tells us an infantryman would never want an anchor on his sword blade, whereas private navies, who had no specific dress code, wouldn't mind the brass hilt and fine (by their standards) styling. I guess I just see maritime in everything! Mark

25th January 2016, 02:49 AM	#6
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,955	Mark, you should never discount your observations which reflect astutely thinking 'outside the box' in the often vaguely understood topic of maritime esoterica. Remember some years ago, and our brass hilt Wooley & Deakin sabres with the fluted ebony grips (1800-1803). While these were often identified as British cavalry swords in the 1970s, examples of these were by Durs Egg who notably produced for the navy. "...cavalry swords have exercised considerable influence over naval weapons in many countries and neither Britain nor America has been an exception. The stirrup hilt popular in British naval circles from the late 1790s was taken from a cavalry original, together with the slightly curved blade with its single broad fuller. The development took place in the last quarter of the 18th c. and it is interesting to note that a similar development took place in France at about the same time. As a result some American naval officers wore swords which were derived from both British and French cavalry patterns". "Naval Swords", P.G.W. Annis, 1970 p.13 As noted by CC, the Russians copied French patterns often profoundly. While this hilt as Ulfberth points out is pretty much the French infantry pattern, that blade certainly appears of cutlass form and heavier than the pandour point infantry versions. ....the anchor itself not withstanding.

25th January 2016, 09:37 AM	#7
ulfberth Member Join Date: Jul 2014 Posts: 403	The hilt sure looks French because of the holes in the langets were the Napoleon head was when used by the infantry officer. Looking at the top of the guard were the tang was hammered, when these two became partners, it look this has been done a few hundred years ago. I agree this is not a freshly composite sword for economical reasons, but from the looks of it this has been done in the early 19th century, of course this is hard to prove. Now pure speculation + sound reasoning: I someone wanted to make a composite with this guard it would be better to use a model 1821 infantry saber blade, there are more easy available and it looks a lot like the 1ste Empire infantry blade and the resale value would probably be better, lets not forget that most if not all composites fakes etc are made purely for financial reasons. So, yes this could very well be a re use of spare parts at hand, however I don't think the sailor would have looked at the anchor first ( collectors might ) the fast broad blade and the balance would be the priority ( I would think ) kind regards Ulfberth

25th January 2016, 11:49 AM	#10
kronckew Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Room 101, Glos. UK Posts: 4,184	yes, a repro, but a good one. i can't afford a real one in that condition i use it here just to show what they looked like.

25th January 2016, 08:06 PM	#11
CutlassCollector Member Join Date: Jan 2013 Location: Scotland Posts: 330	I'm very hazy about sword hilts so thanks Ulfberth for identifying the hilt. There seems to be agreement that the hilt and the blade are of the same time period and the condition of the tang button indicates that they have been paired for some time. So I like Mark's sea going theory. You can imagine a merchant officer wanting a badge of authority to look more like a sword but still retaining the robustness of a cutlass and I guess wearing it on a frequent basis it would be more comfortable than having a 'soup ladle' banging against your hip all day! I have found both these recent threads on cutlasses very interesting and enjoyable so thanks for posting guys. CC.