knife

mahratt · 5th December 2010, 10:56 PM

Dear Forumites,
This knife was presented on one of the Russian Forums. It drew very different opinions as to its attribution.
Can you please look at it and render your opinions, impressions and insights?

Thanks in advance for your help.

Battara · 6th December 2010, 03:39 AM

I am not sure but it looks like a mix to me. The silver mounts look Indo-Persian. The blade looks modern. The quillons look either Turkish or European to me.

I'm curious to see what others think.

ALEX · 6th December 2010, 06:17 AM

The blade is not modern - it is of black "Persian" wootz. The piercings do remind of Central Asia/Afghanistan work, but one of the likely descriptions is that it is of 19th C Tatar/Crimean origin. An interesting example.

Battara · 6th December 2010, 04:43 PM

With a better picture I now see what you mean Alex about the blade.

mahratt · 7th December 2010, 04:54 AM

There are still opinions? Central Asia/Afghanistan work? Turkish? Tatar?

Aleksey G. · 7th December 2010, 02:25 PM

Alex,
I completely concur with you bro - this looks to be an afgani knife. Just the look of it and the decoration piercings....just all speak afganistan.
Ive included a picture of a pulwar I used to have in my collection, please note the piercings in the guard.

Aleksey

ALEX · 7th December 2010, 02:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mahratt

There are still opinions? Central Asia/Afghanistan work? Turkish? Tatar?

The concept of multi-cultural production prevailed throughout the centuries. similar to many Indo-Persian pieces, where different such called "trade blades" were furnished in various local tastes using various "tribal" techniques, this example shows similar fusion. The blade could have been produced anywhere in Persia, Syria, Turkey, etc and dressed anywhere in Central Asia or in Tatarstan or Crimea area. Crimea was part of Ottoman empire until 1850s. Tatarstan, by the way, was/is not part of Crimea. The Tatar attribution opinion is based on the shape of the handle, which is similar to the Tatar saber.
Alex, thanx fror the great comparison example, piercing definitely looks similar.

ariel · 8th December 2010, 05:14 AM

In the interest of full disclosure: I participated in the original discussion and opposed the "Tatar" attribution. My interpretation was that of a somewhat strange Afghani/ North Indian origin.

The blade and the handle are made en suite, as witnessed by identical piercing designs , that are regularly seen on Afghani examples ( poulowar here makes the point). The crossguard is of a venerable Iranian style. The horn handle with multiple small nails is very reminescent of Afghani examples. The bend of the handle does not look very Tatar to me( as seen on Ordynkas) because it starts from the bottom part of the handle, and not from the top one. The metal hanging part on the pommel looks also very Afghani. The wootz blade also hints at Afghani/North Indian origin. The geometry of the blade ( flat with mail-piercing tip) is often seen on North Indian spears.

There are few documented Crimean knives ( several excavated ones were shown on another Forum, as part of the original discussion), but they all looked yataghan-ish and had no resemblance to the present one.

In summary, with the abundance of features shared with Afghani/NI examples and with not a single one shared with the (few known) Crimean Tatar ones, one is on sufficiently firm grounds attributing it to the former part of the world.

These were my main points. Please provide counter-arguments and prove me wrong.

5th December 2010, 10:56 PM	#1
mahratt Member Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: Russia Posts: 1,042	knife Dear Forumites, This knife was presented on one of the Russian Forums. It drew very different opinions as to its attribution. Can you please look at it and render your opinions, impressions and insights? Thanks in advance for your help.

6th December 2010, 06:17 AM	#3
ALEX Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 936	The blade is not modern - it is of black "Persian" wootz. The piercings do remind of Central Asia/Afghanistan work, but one of the likely descriptions is that it is of 19th C Tatar/Crimean origin. An interesting example. Attached Images

7th December 2010, 02:25 PM	#6
Aleksey G. Member Join Date: Dec 2008 Posts: 70	Alex, I completely concur with you bro - this looks to be an afgani knife. Just the look of it and the decoration piercings....just all speak afganistan. Ive included a picture of a pulwar I used to have in my collection, please note the piercings in the guard. Aleksey Attached Images Last edited by Aleksey G.; 7th December 2010 at 03:50 PM.

6th December 2010, 03:39 AM	#2
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,219	I am not sure but it looks like a mix to me. The silver mounts look Indo-Persian. The blade looks modern. The quillons look either Turkish or European to me. I'm curious to see what others think.

6th December 2010, 04:43 PM	#4
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,219	With a better picture I now see what you mean Alex about the blade.

7th December 2010, 04:54 AM	#5
mahratt Member Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: Russia Posts: 1,042	There are still opinions? Central Asia/Afghanistan work? Turkish? Tatar?

8th December 2010, 05:14 AM	#8
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	In the interest of full disclosure: I participated in the original discussion and opposed the "Tatar" attribution. My interpretation was that of a somewhat strange Afghani/ North Indian origin. The blade and the handle are made en suite, as witnessed by identical piercing designs , that are regularly seen on Afghani examples ( poulowar here makes the point). The crossguard is of a venerable Iranian style. The horn handle with multiple small nails is very reminescent of Afghani examples. The bend of the handle does not look very Tatar to me( as seen on Ordynkas) because it starts from the bottom part of the handle, and not from the top one. The metal hanging part on the pommel looks also very Afghani. The wootz blade also hints at Afghani/North Indian origin. The geometry of the blade ( flat with mail-piercing tip) is often seen on North Indian spears. There are few documented Crimean knives ( several excavated ones were shown on another Forum, as part of the original discussion), but they all looked yataghan-ish and had no resemblance to the present one. In summary, with the abundance of features shared with Afghani/NI examples and with not a single one shared with the (few known) Crimean Tatar ones, one is on sufficiently firm grounds attributing it to the former part of the world. These were my main points. Please provide counter-arguments and prove me wrong.