Some Help with a Balinese Keris

BSMStar · 3rd February 2005, 05:17 PM

Can any one tell me something about this Balinese Keris. Why a silver hilt? and so on... the significants of the Black and Silver sheath...

Thanks!

ariel · 3rd February 2005, 05:20 PM

Even for a total ignoramus that I am, this baby is beautiful! Congratulations!

capt.smash · 3rd February 2005, 05:35 PM

wow thats beautyful.....id give my hind teath for that

Mick · 3rd February 2005, 06:02 PM

BMStar

I am not an expert on these pieces, but I do know a little bit about them. That is a very good piece. I suggest that you clean that varnish or sludgy oil from the blade with generous applications of kerosene and fine toothbushing (the tooth brush will probably fall apart but that is of little consequence). If you don’t have original keris oil you can apply a synthetic gun oil to the blade with an artists brush. (I usually mix keris oil and the synthetic oil 1 to 1 to get both good protection and the proper odor for the blade. I think that this still shows reverence for the blade although purist experts will probably disagree.)

As to why the use of silver and ebony, not everyone has the wherewithal to provide gold and ivory which are the top items for this purpose. The stones look real and are of the proper colors.

LabanTayo · 3rd February 2005, 06:41 PM

I remember handling this Keris when BSMStar got it. Its probably the nicest Keris I've ever handled. Very nice piece.
BSMStar, would you trade it for a Moro Kris???

BSMStar · 3rd February 2005, 07:29 PM

Thank you all for your kind remarks.

Thank you LabanTayo, you are bound and determined to make me a Moro collector... alais, I seem to have misplaced my money tree.

But who knows what the future may hold.

This keris does not have the usual "elephant trunk", does anyone know what this shape is called/means??

The stones are real; one of the sapphires on the back is a "star" sapphire. Usually this type of hilt is mentioned to be gold, so why the investment in silver?

The blade is actually clean, its just showing some oil residue (in the light). The blade appears to be a three metal pamor, the black iron, the nickel and a golden (oxide like) looking metal. I might try to get some better pictures of the pamor.

Thank you all for your help and insight!

Henk · 3rd February 2005, 08:45 PM

This is a beauty indeed.

Don't brush the surface with a toothbrush!!!!! If you clean it the etching might disapear. So don't!! As you said it is residu from oiling and that will disapear in time and oiling the blade prevents it from rusting.

When you make more pictures, make another one of the base of the blade so that we can clearly see the shape of the kembang kacang. Would like to see more of the scabbard too and an overall view of the keris.

And why silver? I think Mick gave the answer. And mostly these keris with ivory and gold were only for the royal families.

Mick · 3rd February 2005, 09:17 PM

BMStar

The sequence of dress (in regard to metals) goes gold, gold capping, gold plating (originally fire gilding), silver, and copper/brass. Many of the “golden hilts” are actually gilded silver and or gilded copper/brass. This is nothing to be ashamed of as good workmanship is really achieved in all of the metals. Your piece shows good quality workmanship. It is not of the highest quality, but it is damned good. I have seen pure gold pieces which have nowhere near the quality of workmanship as yours. (Seems strange doesn’t it.) People in Bali are still turning out exceptionally fine work as well as some mediocre and the junk brass pieces that are sometimes passed of on eBay as “Golden”.

As far as the other color besides black and white on the blade, I believe that we have resolved (here on the forum) that this is caused by impurities in the wranga used in the etching process.

Henk

Perhaps I didn't make myself clear. I recommended the use of kerosene wiped into crevaces of the blade with a soft (not hard) toothbrush ro get all pieces of dirt off of the blade in order to start protecting the blade with a clean finish. Obviously no toothpaste is to used in this process. Indeed it would polish the patina off of the blade.

BSMStar · 4th February 2005, 12:22 AM

Thank you Mick and Henk for you wisdom and input!!!!!!!!!!

I apologize for the poor quality pictures (not enough lighting). I will break out my lights and take better pictures... (busy schedule, but hopefully by this weekend).

I know in Bali, that black and white show the "struggle" or "balance" between good and evil. I have not seen many black sheaths before.

Maybe there is a balance with the silver around the black wood?

My question about the silver Bayu (secretly) is my wondering about the status of the original owner, with the rubies and sapphires (and agates around Bayu's base), it probably didn't belong to your average "Joe".... with the black and silver, what the spiritual background or meaning may be.

Thanks again for your insight, I am on a learning curve with Balinese Keris'.

Mick · 4th February 2005, 04:52 AM

BSMStar

(I finally got your handle right)

Regarding the sequence of quality of material for sheaths, I think ivory and exceptionally fine pelet wound be a tie for top. Ebony (a rather new material) would probably be next followed by regular pellet . The final grade might consist of everything else.

You are right that there are not a lot of ebony sheaths around. I believe that the wood for this would have to have been imported. I have at least one and maybe two. (My stuff is not easily accessible.)

Your original owner was not a regular "Joe". He put near the top materials on this piece (I assume to the best of his ability) and the grip might even have been once gilded. It doesn’t look like it from the picture, but you might find some traces in the deep portions of the figure.

Sang Keris · 4th February 2005, 03:46 PM

i think u can make a good warangan can make it perfect.....need more contrast...

but overall.. its great..

congrat

BSMStar · 5th February 2005, 05:17 PM

I am sorry about the quality... but here are some more pictures..., let me know if you need more.

capt.smash · 6th February 2005, 12:25 AM

Drool................................

Rick · 6th February 2005, 12:31 AM

Me too !

Drool ........

Great contrast to the pamor !
The luks are so graceful .
Oh to own one like it < sigh >

Henk · 6th February 2005, 02:41 PM

I was reading, well reading....looking pictures in a book about Lombok Keris. It is in the Indonesian language, so that's why I was looking pictures .

There was a drawing of a keris that had the same dapur as this one. Unfortenately no description about the prabot because the chapter was about pamor. It is not an uncommon prabot and can be found in literature. A shame they didn't use a line to name the dapur.

I found also pictures about the same style of dress. Carefully I would say that this keris is from Lombok.

Anyway, it is a beauty!!! Thanks for sharing.

Alam Shah · 6th February 2005, 03:09 PM

Henk,
If you don't mind, could you let us know the title of the book that you are 'reading'. This should help in updating our knowledge.

BSMStar · 6th February 2005, 06:42 PM

Now that was a curve I did not expect!

... LomboK?

That would really put me back to "square one" since I know even less about Lombok Keris. The joys of collecting!

Henk · 6th February 2005, 10:35 PM

Alam Shah,

Sorry, that was not too smart. To mention reading a book and not telling wich one. It is "Keris (di) Lombok" by Ir. H. Lalu Djelenga

BSMStar · 8th February 2005, 02:54 PM

I have seen this hilt IDed as Bayu.... but also as Bima (see link)

Bima
http://perso.wanadoo.fr/taman.sari/k...kiran_bali.htm
Bayu
http://www.ethno-museum.ac.at/en/col...a/indon2l.html

Are they the same or different deities?

Mick · 8th February 2005, 05:44 PM

BSMStar

It's Bayu. The attribute is the Amrita held in the right hand accross the chest.

I have a Hanuman with the Amrita for which I haven't figured the reason. Hanuman is recognized by the tail that curls up over the top of his head.

Bima is a hero. Batara Bayu is a God. The "God of Winds" if my memory serves me right. He is also the father of Hanuman (the White Monkey General).

BSMStar · 8th February 2005, 07:20 PM

Thank you Mick,

That is what I thought. The thread on your awesome hilt (like your Avatar) had the link to the Bima hilt which looked a lot like this one. Thank you for clearing that up for me!

John · 9th February 2005, 06:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mick

BSMStar

It's Bayu. The attribute is the Amrita held in the right hand accross the chest.

Bima is a hero. Batara Bayu is a God. The "God of Winds" if my memory serves me right. He is also the father of Hanuman (the White Monkey General).

Still reasonably fresh from my reading of the Mahabaratha (Indian version) pertaining to Mick's other thread. If I remembered correctly, the "god of wind" is called Vayu and he was the god Pandu's wife kunti invoked for the conception of Bima, primarily for strength (Pandu was a celibate). So I presume Bayu is the Balinese version (spelling) of the god of wind.

BSMStar · 9th February 2005, 07:44 PM

Thank you John and Mick.

As you can tell, I am relatively new to the forum... and a new student to the Balinese/Lombok/Hindu cultures.

Your help is greatly appreciated!!

Boswego · 10th February 2005, 02:03 AM

I just got my first Kris recently-as a total rookie I'd like to ask a crass question-how much does a beautiful piece (just a general price range) like this go for ? Sorry to be so crude but i have to start saving my pennies now and know zero about sword values !
P.S.-Hope I'm not breaking any rules by being so nosey-Thanks.

Rick · 10th February 2005, 02:25 AM

Boswego, discussion of value is not allowed here .

Bali kerisses of this quality are highly prized .

Boswego · 10th February 2005, 06:52 AM

Rick & Everybody-My apologies,sorry to ask about value,that is one mind boggling Keris !

3rd February 2005, 05:17 PM	#1
BSMStar Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Kansas City, MO USA Posts: 312	Some Help with a Balinese Keris Can any one tell me something about this Balinese Keris. Why a silver hilt? and so on... the significants of the Black and Silver sheath... Thanks! Attached Images

3rd February 2005, 09:17 PM	#8
Mick Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Orlando Posts: 104	BMStar The sequence of dress (in regard to metals) goes gold, gold capping, gold plating (originally fire gilding), silver, and copper/brass. Many of the “golden hilts” are actually gilded silver and or gilded copper/brass. This is nothing to be ashamed of as good workmanship is really achieved in all of the metals. Your piece shows good quality workmanship. It is not of the highest quality, but it is damned good. I have seen pure gold pieces which have nowhere near the quality of workmanship as yours. (Seems strange doesn’t it.) People in Bali are still turning out exceptionally fine work as well as some mediocre and the junk brass pieces that are sometimes passed of on eBay as “Golden”. As far as the other color besides black and white on the blade, I believe that we have resolved (here on the forum) that this is caused by impurities in the wranga used in the etching process. Henk Perhaps I didn't make myself clear. I recommended the use of kerosene wiped into crevaces of the blade with a soft (not hard) toothbrush ro get all pieces of dirt off of the blade in order to start protecting the blade with a clean finish. Obviously no toothpaste is to used in this process. Indeed it would polish the patina off of the blade. Last edited by Mick; 3rd February 2005 at 10:40 PM.

4th February 2005, 04:52 AM	#10
Mick Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Orlando Posts: 104	BSMStar (I finally got your handle right) Regarding the sequence of quality of material for sheaths, I think ivory and exceptionally fine pelet wound be a tie for top. Ebony (a rather new material) would probably be next followed by regular pellet . The final grade might consist of everything else. You are right that there are not a lot of ebony sheaths around. I believe that the wood for this would have to have been imported. I have at least one and maybe two. (My stuff is not easily accessible.) Your original owner was not a regular "Joe". He put near the top materials on this piece (I assume to the best of his ability) and the grip might even have been once gilded. It doesn’t look like it from the picture, but you might find some traces in the deep portions of the figure. Last edited by Mick; 4th February 2005 at 06:22 AM.

5th February 2005, 05:17 PM	#12
BSMStar Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Kansas City, MO USA Posts: 312	More Pictures I am sorry about the quality... but here are some more pictures..., let me know if you need more. Attached Images

6th February 2005, 02:41 PM	#15
Henk Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 1,209	I was reading, well reading....looking pictures in a book about Lombok Keris. It is in the Indonesian language, so that's why I was looking pictures . There was a drawing of a keris that had the same dapur as this one. Unfortenately no description about the prabot because the chapter was about pamor. It is not an uncommon prabot and can be found in literature. A shame they didn't use a line to name the dapur. I found also pictures about the same style of dress. Carefully I would say that this keris is from Lombok. Anyway, it is a beauty!!! Thanks for sharing. Last edited by Henk; 6th February 2005 at 10:37 PM.

3rd February 2005, 05:20 PM	#2
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Even for a total ignoramus that I am, this baby is beautiful! Congratulations!

3rd February 2005, 05:35 PM	#3
capt.smash Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Devon ,England Posts: 80	wow thats beautyful.....id give my hind teath for that

3rd February 2005, 06:02 PM	#4
Mick Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Orlando Posts: 104	BMStar I am not an expert on these pieces, but I do know a little bit about them. That is a very good piece. I suggest that you clean that varnish or sludgy oil from the blade with generous applications of kerosene and fine toothbushing (the tooth brush will probably fall apart but that is of little consequence). If you don’t have original keris oil you can apply a synthetic gun oil to the blade with an artists brush. (I usually mix keris oil and the synthetic oil 1 to 1 to get both good protection and the proper odor for the blade. I think that this still shows reverence for the blade although purist experts will probably disagree.) As to why the use of silver and ebony, not everyone has the wherewithal to provide gold and ivory which are the top items for this purpose. The stones look real and are of the proper colors.

3rd February 2005, 06:41 PM	#5
LabanTayo Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Kansas City Posts: 177	I remember handling this Keris when BSMStar got it. Its probably the nicest Keris I've ever handled. Very nice piece. BSMStar, would you trade it for a Moro Kris???

3rd February 2005, 07:29 PM	#6
BSMStar Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Kansas City, MO USA Posts: 312	Thank you all for your kind remarks. Thank you LabanTayo, you are bound and determined to make me a Moro collector... alais, I seem to have misplaced my money tree. But who knows what the future may hold. This keris does not have the usual "elephant trunk", does anyone know what this shape is called/means?? The stones are real; one of the sapphires on the back is a "star" sapphire. Usually this type of hilt is mentioned to be gold, so why the investment in silver? The blade is actually clean, its just showing some oil residue (in the light). The blade appears to be a three metal pamor, the black iron, the nickel and a golden (oxide like) looking metal. I might try to get some better pictures of the pamor. Thank you all for your help and insight!

3rd February 2005, 08:45 PM	#7
Henk Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 1,209	This is a beauty indeed. Don't brush the surface with a toothbrush!!!!! If you clean it the etching might disapear. So don't!! As you said it is residu from oiling and that will disapear in time and oiling the blade prevents it from rusting. When you make more pictures, make another one of the base of the blade so that we can clearly see the shape of the kembang kacang. Would like to see more of the scabbard too and an overall view of the keris. And why silver? I think Mick gave the answer. And mostly these keris with ivory and gold were only for the royal families.

4th February 2005, 12:22 AM	#9
BSMStar Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Kansas City, MO USA Posts: 312	Thank you Mick and Henk for you wisdom and input!!!!!!!!!! I apologize for the poor quality pictures (not enough lighting). I will break out my lights and take better pictures... (busy schedule, but hopefully by this weekend). I know in Bali, that black and white show the "struggle" or "balance" between good and evil. I have not seen many black sheaths before. Maybe there is a balance with the silver around the black wood? My question about the silver Bayu (secretly) is my wondering about the status of the original owner, with the rubies and sapphires (and agates around Bayu's base), it probably didn't belong to your average "Joe".... with the black and silver, what the spiritual background or meaning may be. Thanks again for your insight, I am on a learning curve with Balinese Keris'.

4th February 2005, 03:46 PM	#11
Sang Keris Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Indonesia Posts: 46	i think u can make a good warangan can make it perfect.....need more contrast... but overall.. its great.. congrat

6th February 2005, 12:25 AM	#13
capt.smash Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Devon ,England Posts: 80	Drool................................

6th February 2005, 12:31 AM	#14
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,294	Me too ! Drool ........ Great contrast to the pamor ! The luks are so graceful . Oh to own one like it < sigh >

6th February 2005, 03:09 PM	#16
Alam Shah Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Singapore Posts: 1,248	Title of book. Henk, If you don't mind, could you let us know the title of the book that you are 'reading'. This should help in updating our knowledge.

6th February 2005, 06:42 PM	#17
BSMStar Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Kansas City, MO USA Posts: 312	Wowwwww! Now that was a curve I did not expect! ... LomboK? That would really put me back to "square one" since I know even less about Lombok Keris. The joys of collecting!

6th February 2005, 10:35 PM	#18
Henk Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 1,209	Alam Shah, Sorry, that was not too smart. To mention reading a book and not telling wich one. It is "Keris (di) Lombok" by Ir. H. Lalu Djelenga

8th February 2005, 02:54 PM	#19
BSMStar Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Kansas City, MO USA Posts: 312	Bima or Bayu I have seen this hilt IDed as Bayu.... but also as Bima (see link) Bima http://perso.wanadoo.fr/taman.sari/k...kiran_bali.htm Bayu http://www.ethno-museum.ac.at/en/col...a/indon2l.html Are they the same or different deities?

8th February 2005, 05:44 PM	#20
Mick Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Orlando Posts: 104	BSMStar It's Bayu. The attribute is the Amrita held in the right hand accross the chest. I have a Hanuman with the Amrita for which I haven't figured the reason. Hanuman is recognized by the tail that curls up over the top of his head. Bima is a hero. Batara Bayu is a God. The "God of Winds" if my memory serves me right. He is also the father of Hanuman (the White Monkey General).

8th February 2005, 07:20 PM	#21
BSMStar Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Kansas City, MO USA Posts: 312	Thank you Mick, That is what I thought. The thread on your awesome hilt (like your Avatar) had the link to the Bima hilt which looked a lot like this one. Thank you for clearing that up for me!

9th February 2005, 07:44 PM	#23
BSMStar Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Kansas City, MO USA Posts: 312	Vayu/Bayu Thank you John and Mick. As you can tell, I am relatively new to the forum... and a new student to the Balinese/Lombok/Hindu cultures. Your help is greatly appreciated!!

10th February 2005, 02:03 AM	#24
Boswego Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 23	I just got my first Kris recently-as a total rookie I'd like to ask a crass question-how much does a beautiful piece (just a general price range) like this go for ? Sorry to be so crude but i have to start saving my pennies now and know zero about sword values ! P.S.-Hope I'm not breaking any rules by being so nosey-Thanks.

10th February 2005, 02:25 AM	#25
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,294	Boswego, discussion of value is not allowed here . Bali kerisses of this quality are highly prized .

10th February 2005, 06:52 AM	#26
Boswego Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 23	Rick & Everybody-My apologies,sorry to ask about value,that is one mind boggling Keris !