Age and origin of this kris!

[Maurice]

Hi all,

I got this old kris since yesterday and I would like to know more about it.
The scabbard is old, but I guess later and not that exciting.

The length of the kris (out of the scabbard) is 66 cm (26 inches).
The cacatua pommel is made of horn, very dark from old patina.
The handle is surrounded with smooth silver panels.
The shallow waved blade shows also great patina and has a kind of a waved fuller in the middle on both sides, from the arrow shaped pannel at the base to the tip, that is waving the same way as the many shallow waves of the blade.
The gangya is seperate and there are three holes filled with bras dots.
Baca-baca's are also silver.

Any comments on this kris are welcome!

Maurice

[ThePepperSkull]

If the sheath is any indication, it may be a Sundang Melayu. The handle completely covered in metal fittings makes me think so as well. The "elephant's head" area of the sor-soran reminds me a lot of peninsula Kris Sundang as opposed to Sulu or Mindanao Kris.

Again, I am far from being an expert on the issue and this is what I see from what I have learned so far. Perhaps the more experienced members can enlighten us? I know there was a thread in the Keris Worung Kopi recently that found a Sundang with Pamor to be a newer made blade with a forced patina/aging on it. Could this be a similar case or is it a legitimate piece?

[Battara]

I agree with Pepperskull. This is a Malaysian Kris and a nice piece. These are harder to date. I would guess early 20th century?

[kai]

Congrats, Maurice, I like!

This is a tough one to classify for me. I'm sure it's a genuine antique (IMHO 19th c.) sword though. Pics of the scabbard with longer exposure would be interesting, too.

Can you make out wether both clamps are fastened to the hilt at all?

Any hints that the katik/gangya might be a replacement? From the pics it does look original to me - usually the holes are more evenly spaced/sized though.

Regards,
Kai

[Maurice]

Originally Posted by ThePepperSkull

If the sheath is any indication, it may be a Sundang Melayu. The handle completely covered in metal fittings makes me think so as well. The "elephant's head" area of the sor-soran reminds me a lot of peninsula Kris Sundang as opposed to Sulu or Mindanao Kris.?

That is what I thought also. It has some differences opposed moro krisses, for example the scabbard.
But at the other hand, it is quite heavy and couldn't there be a possibility that this one is moro though, but the (old) scabbard is made later in malay style???

Originally Posted by ThePepperSkull

Again, I am far from being an expert on the issue and this is what I see from what I have learned so far. Perhaps the more experienced members can enlighten us? I know there was a thread in the Keris Worung Kopi recently that found a Sundang with Pamor to be a newer made blade with a forced patina/aging on it. Could this be a similar case or is it a legitimate piece?

I am also no expert on Malay sundangs at all, but I am sure after studying this piece, to tell that this is a very genuine and very old piece. This is absolutely not a forced patina/aging what we have here. Maybe the images are very bad (it seems difficult for me to show the dark patina on a light coloured background.)
I am 100% sure this is a legitimate piece!..... and please don't ask....I am NOT removing the handle to look at the peksi!!

Originally Posted by Battara

I agree with Pepperskull. This is a Malaysian Kris and a nice piece. These are harder to date. I would guess early 20th century?

Jose, after handling very old pieces lately (and also not that old pieces, and I am talking than about early 20th century pieces) I can assure you this one is very old, definately 19th century, and when looking to the patina all over and the old damages that have the same patina, I wouldn't be surprised if it was very early 19th century.

[Maurice]

Originally Posted by kai

Congrats, Maurice, I like!

This is a tough one to classify for me. I'm sure it's a genuine antique (IMHO 19th c.) sword though. Pics of the scabbard with longer exposure would be interesting, too.

Can you make out wether both clamps are fastened to the hilt at all?

Any hints that the katik/gangya might be a replacement? From the pics it does look original to me - usually the holes are more evenly spaced/sized though.

Regards,
Kai

Thanks Kai,

The wooden scabbard consists of two main pieces: a lower part (which contains of two slabs of wood) and a wider becoming upper part (consisting out of one piece of wood) which has been sliding over the lower part, and fastened with some kind of resin!

One stirrup is still attached, and the other one shows rests of being attached in the past.

The gangya looks very smooth with the blade itself, and there is nothing to find to even doubt it would be a replacement. It is also quite thick!

I made some more images, and hope these are better!

[Maurice]

I found an image in a book with the same kind of smooth silver bands over the handle.

[kai]

Hello Maurice,

I'm far from convinced that the keris from Tammens is Sulu or done by any Moro craftsmen - looks more like another Banjar variety to me. Also the silverwork at the grip is different enough as not to be much of help to place your kris, I'm afraid.

Regards,
Kai

[Maurice]

Originally Posted by kai

Hello Maurice,

I'm far from convinced that the keris from Tammens is Sulu or done by any Moro craftsmen - looks more like another Banjar variety to me. Also the silverwork at the grip is different enough as not to be much of help to place your kris, I'm afraid.

Regards,
Kai

Hi Kai,

I totally agree with you, but I thought it would be nice to put the images of tammens in this thread, because they were the only one I could find in my books I use as reference, (give it a quick search though) with that smooth silverwork on the handle.

Best,
Maurice

[Maurice]

I suggest the moderators move it to the warung than?