Khyber Knife - Real or...?

Stan S. · 12th November 2011, 06:46 PM

Hello all,

First post here. I recently acquired a khyber knife from an eBay auction that ended with a surprisingly low price. When I received it in the mail a few days ago, I imediately became suspicious of its age (and possibly authenticity). Things that throw me off are as follows:

- The blade is in superb condition and aside from a few tiny patina spots is polished like a mirror. It is semi sharp, however the edge bears no signs of sharpening, nor are there any nicks that would indicate actual usage, etc.
- The grip section of the hilt is 5" long. Thats huge! I am a well proportioned 6.3' tall 250lbs man and my palm is only 4" wide. Can you imagine the size of the hand this sword was meant for?
- And finally, the wooden scabbard is not covered in black leather as it appears at first glance... It's actually paper, dyed black and attached to the wood with some sort of blueish foam-like adhesive. This gives the scabbard a look and feel of an old hardcover book binding - I have never heard of any materials other than leather or fabric with or without metal fittings being used on scabbards of these weapons.

On the other hand, the sword is well balanced, although quite a bit lighter than my other (authentic) khyber knife. The blade shows a small recurve closer to the tip, which according to my research is reminiscent of older style khyber knives. Short fullers on each side are hand carved as they clearly show chisel marks. The grips are made of dark horn with minor cracks and could be of some age. There are traces of resin binding the blade to the hilt in addition to the usual rivets. No signs of welding anywhere as far as I see. Please refer to the pictures below. What are your opinions on this item’s age?

A.alnakkas · 12th November 2011, 06:58 PM

Looks authentic but modern. In the sense that its made to be used but recently. I could be wrong :-)

Lew · 12th November 2011, 07:57 PM

Indian made modern repro.

Atlantia · 12th November 2011, 08:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lew

Indian made modern repro.

Agreed. Kult of athena sell similar ones in various sizes. They list them as made by Deepeeka but I can't see them on the deepeeka website. I would think there are various sources for them in India:

Kult Of Athena

A.alnakkas · 13th November 2011, 12:26 AM

Looks pretty good for a repro I must say.

broadaxe · 13th November 2011, 01:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A.alnakkas

Looks pretty good for a repro I must say.

Actually it is decently made with temepred steel blade. Atlanta Cutlery used to sell those also in the past, exclusively made by Windlass Steelcraft.

Stan S. · 13th November 2011, 03:25 PM

Thanks to all who replied. I think you guys are spot on. I guess I was confused by how utilitarian this item is, and I thought it was too plain and well made to be a repro. But I have to agree - it is a functional modern replica. Even though the seller gave me an option to return, I think I will keep it. After all, it only costed me just a bit over $50...

Blacksmith · 13th November 2011, 05:34 PM

Hello,I had a chance to visit the Deepeka Industries factory on Merut ( quite near New Delhi) on 2004 and I saw these (new) khyber knives there on their show room. It is possible that they are not producing these anymore.

broadaxe · 13th November 2011, 07:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stan S.

Thanks to all who replied. I think you guys are spot on. I guess I was confused by how utilitarian this item is, and I thought it was too plain and well made to be a repro. But I have to agree - it is a functional modern replica. Even though the seller gave me an option to return, I think I will keep it. After all, it only costed me just a bit over $50...

I keep such items on my educational collection, which I use in lectures & demonstrations. I'm not afraid of people touching with filthy fingers and it can be used for field testing.

Stan S. · 14th November 2011, 12:47 AM

So I was thinking... Unless I am not seeing something very obvious, the only things giving this item away as a repro are its unusually clean condition and a paper covered scabbard. If so, and assuming that there are identical copies of this sword floating out there, a potential exits that in 10-20 years, these reproductions will be sold as genuine antiques. There may be no answer but how can a collector safeguard from getting duped in the future?

VANDOO · 14th November 2011, 06:52 PM

MODERN, REPO, REPLICA

OR POSSIBLY MODERN WEAPON/TOOL MADE FOR USE FOR SALE TO AFGAN OR OTHER LOCAL PEOPLE FOR ACTUAL USE. THE ONLY WAY TO DETERMINE WHICH IT IS WOULD BE TO SEE IF ANY LOCALS ARE CARRING THESE TODAY.
I OFTEN BUY SUCH ITEMS IN THE LOCAL SHOPS WHEN I TRAVEL BUT JUST BECAUSE ONE WHO TRAVELS BRINGS IT BACK DOSEN'T ALWAYS MAKE IT A TOURIST ITEM. ITS OFTEN JUST THE CURRENT INEXPENSIVE MODEL OFFERED FOR SALE LOCALLY. ATLANTA CUTERLY IS MOST LIKELY A REPLICA FOR COLLECTORS BUT IF A AFGAN HAD A CATALOG AND COULD OUTFIT HIS GROUP AT A GOOD PRICE EVEN THEY MIGHT SEE USE.
AT ANY RATE IT LOOKS WELL MADE AND FUNCTIONAL AND IF THE PRICE WAS APPROPRIATE A FAIR BUY.

laEspadaAncha · 14th November 2011, 07:44 PM

Stan:

I picked up one that was similar to your own (aside from from additional chiseling on my own example, the scabbard is leather over wood - other then that, they're dimensionally similar) as part of a "mixed-bag" collection I acquired last year. The collection had knives & swords spanning the spectrum from high to medium to low quality. The one thing they all had in common is they had all been collected between 1977 and 1982.

Among the items from this collection were a couple European swords and dirks made by the Del Tin brothers on order for Museum Replicas, Ltd, which as I understand it has since been absorbed into Atlanta Cutlery.

Was this style Khyber knife listed in the Museum Replicas catalog from the early '80s?

I guess it would take someone with a copy of one such catalog to verify this one way or the other.

Anyway, even if it was made to be sold as a replica/repro (as opposed to having been made for domestic use), IMO it could be 30 years old or older.

Stan S. · 14th November 2011, 10:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by laEspadaAncha

Stan:

I picked up one that was similar to your own (aside from from additional chiseling on my own example, the scabbard is leather over wood - other then that, they're dimensionally similar) as part of a "mixed-bag" collection I acquired last year. The collection had knives & swords spanning the spectrum from high to medium to low quality. The one thing they all had in common is they had all been collected between 1977 and 1982.

Among the items from this collection were a couple European swords and dirks made by the Del Tin brothers on order for Museum Replicas, Ltd, which as I understand it has since been absorbed into Atlanta Cutlery.

Was this style Khyber knife listed in the Museum Replicas catalog from the early '80s?

I guess it would take someone with a copy of one such catalog to verify this one way or the other.

Anyway, even if it was made to be sold as a replica/repro (as opposed to having been made for domestic use), IMO it could be 30 years old or older.

You know, its funny you brought this up as the seller claims to have aquired it in the 70s. So the time line definetely adds up.

trenchwarfare · 17th November 2011, 02:17 AM

Late 70s, early 80s. Atlanta Cutlery offered these in two sizes. This large one, and one approx. 20" overall. At the same time, they were selling the over-sized "Ceremonial" Kukris. Wish I'd a kept some of those catalogs.

12th November 2011, 06:46 PM	#1
Stan S. Member Join Date: Nov 2011 Location: Brooklyn, NY USA Posts: 227	Khyber Knife - Real or...? Hello all, First post here. I recently acquired a khyber knife from an eBay auction that ended with a surprisingly low price. When I received it in the mail a few days ago, I imediately became suspicious of its age (and possibly authenticity). Things that throw me off are as follows: - The blade is in superb condition and aside from a few tiny patina spots is polished like a mirror. It is semi sharp, however the edge bears no signs of sharpening, nor are there any nicks that would indicate actual usage, etc. - The grip section of the hilt is 5" long. Thats huge! I am a well proportioned 6.3' tall 250lbs man and my palm is only 4" wide. Can you imagine the size of the hand this sword was meant for? - And finally, the wooden scabbard is not covered in black leather as it appears at first glance... It's actually paper, dyed black and attached to the wood with some sort of blueish foam-like adhesive. This gives the scabbard a look and feel of an old hardcover book binding - I have never heard of any materials other than leather or fabric with or without metal fittings being used on scabbards of these weapons. On the other hand, the sword is well balanced, although quite a bit lighter than my other (authentic) khyber knife. The blade shows a small recurve closer to the tip, which according to my research is reminiscent of older style khyber knives. Short fullers on each side are hand carved as they clearly show chisel marks. The grips are made of dark horn with minor cracks and could be of some age. There are traces of resin binding the blade to the hilt in addition to the usual rivets. No signs of welding anywhere as far as I see. Please refer to the pictures below. What are your opinions on this item’s age? Attached Images

12th November 2011, 06:58 PM	#2
A.alnakkas Member Join Date: Nov 2010 Location: Kuwait Posts: 1,340	Looks authentic but modern. In the sense that its made to be used but recently. I could be wrong :-)

12th November 2011, 07:57 PM	#3
Lew (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: East Coast USA Posts: 3,191	Indian made modern repro.

13th November 2011, 12:26 AM	#5
A.alnakkas Member Join Date: Nov 2010 Location: Kuwait Posts: 1,340	Looks pretty good for a repro I must say.

13th November 2011, 03:25 PM	#7
Stan S. Member Join Date: Nov 2011 Location: Brooklyn, NY USA Posts: 227	Thanks to all who replied. I think you guys are spot on. I guess I was confused by how utilitarian this item is, and I thought it was too plain and well made to be a repro. But I have to agree - it is a functional modern replica. Even though the seller gave me an option to return, I think I will keep it. After all, it only costed me just a bit over $50...

13th November 2011, 05:34 PM	#8
Blacksmith Member Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: Finland Posts: 98	Hello,I had a chance to visit the Deepeka Industries factory on Merut ( quite near New Delhi) on 2004 and I saw these (new) khyber knives there on their show room. It is possible that they are not producing these anymore.

14th November 2011, 12:47 AM	#10
Stan S. Member Join Date: Nov 2011 Location: Brooklyn, NY USA Posts: 227	So I was thinking... Unless I am not seeing something very obvious, the only things giving this item away as a repro are its unusually clean condition and a paper covered scabbard. If so, and assuming that there are identical copies of this sword floating out there, a potential exits that in 10-20 years, these reproductions will be sold as genuine antiques. There may be no answer but how can a collector safeguard from getting duped in the future?

14th November 2011, 06:52 PM	#11
VANDOO (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: OKLAHOMA, USA Posts: 3,138	MODERN, REPO, REPLICA OR POSSIBLY MODERN WEAPON/TOOL MADE FOR USE FOR SALE TO AFGAN OR OTHER LOCAL PEOPLE FOR ACTUAL USE. THE ONLY WAY TO DETERMINE WHICH IT IS WOULD BE TO SEE IF ANY LOCALS ARE CARRING THESE TODAY. I OFTEN BUY SUCH ITEMS IN THE LOCAL SHOPS WHEN I TRAVEL BUT JUST BECAUSE ONE WHO TRAVELS BRINGS IT BACK DOSEN'T ALWAYS MAKE IT A TOURIST ITEM. ITS OFTEN JUST THE CURRENT INEXPENSIVE MODEL OFFERED FOR SALE LOCALLY. ATLANTA CUTERLY IS MOST LIKELY A REPLICA FOR COLLECTORS BUT IF A AFGAN HAD A CATALOG AND COULD OUTFIT HIS GROUP AT A GOOD PRICE EVEN THEY MIGHT SEE USE. AT ANY RATE IT LOOKS WELL MADE AND FUNCTIONAL AND IF THE PRICE WAS APPROPRIATE A FAIR BUY.

14th November 2011, 07:44 PM	#12
laEspadaAncha Member Join Date: Aug 2006 Posts: 608	Stan: I picked up one that was similar to your own (aside from from additional chiseling on my own example, the scabbard is leather over wood - other then that, they're dimensionally similar) as part of a "mixed-bag" collection I acquired last year. The collection had knives & swords spanning the spectrum from high to medium to low quality. The one thing they all had in common is they had all been collected between 1977 and 1982. Among the items from this collection were a couple European swords and dirks made by the Del Tin brothers on order for Museum Replicas, Ltd, which as I understand it has since been absorbed into Atlanta Cutlery. Was this style Khyber knife listed in the Museum Replicas catalog from the early '80s? I guess it would take someone with a copy of one such catalog to verify this one way or the other. Anyway, even if it was made to be sold as a replica/repro (as opposed to having been made for domestic use), IMO it could be 30 years old or older.

17th November 2011, 02:17 AM	#14
trenchwarfare Member Join Date: Oct 2008 Posts: 385	Late 70s, early 80s. Atlanta Cutlery offered these in two sizes. This large one, and one approx. 20" overall. At the same time, they were selling the over-sized "Ceremonial" Kukris. Wish I'd a kept some of those catalogs.