Jambiya Blade Construction

kahnjar1 · 24th August 2009, 10:09 PM

I would like some comment on the construction methods of ribbed Jambiya/Khanjar blades. I notice that a lot of these, particularly later/modern examples originating, particularly from Yemen, are constructed in two pieces, and then fused together in some manner. I personally have always regarded these as "not genuine", but simply a method of easily forging blades to attach to mass produced Jambiya. There are however some modern pieces which do have a solid blade. I have very recently taken a chance on one of these, described as having a "one piece blade", and although I do not regard it as old, it does, at a VERY cheap price, fill a small gap in my collection until I have the serious funds available to replace it with the real thing. I do not yet have it to hand, so can not really comment any further until it arrives. Pics are sellers.
Meanwhile, I would be most interested to hear comments re these two piece blades.
Regards Stuart

Michael Blalock · 24th August 2009, 11:39 PM

While the Jambiyas with two piece blades are not the better ones, they should not necessarily be disregarded as tourist pieces. Having lived in Yemen before the existence of tourism in that country I used to watch a few jambiya makers in their shops in the Taiz souk. I only witnessed the fabrication of the two piece jambiyas with zebu horn. The jambiya maker sat cross legged in a small space. With a water pipe, a small anvil, a white gas blow torch to heat and braze the blade. I recall that they used a garden spade shaped tool to work the rib into the metal. They would periodically heat the blade with the blow torch.
Every Yemeni man wore a Jambiya. Jambiyas were even made for young boys. I am wearing one of these child’s Jambiyas in my avatar. With a population of several million at that time there must have been a demand for hundreds or thousands of new Jambiya’s each day. I recall that my Jambiya was about 2-3 reals and my dad brought the fine ones for 20-30 reals. I think the exchange rate was 4 reals to the dollar and those were silver Maria Theresa Thallers. Our servants were paid one real per day.
Even today, Yemen is an impoverished country with a population of 24 million. For 40% of the population the average daily income is less than a dollar. I would bet the vast majority of Yemenis can only afford these two pieces blades.

Lew · 24th August 2009, 11:59 PM

Stuart

I approached this subject some time ago here is the link.

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...hlight=jambiya

The rib on your new purchase is squared which to me seems two pieces pressed together.

Lew

kahnjar1 · 25th August 2009, 01:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LOUIEBLADES

Stuart

I approached this subject some time ago here is the link.

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...hlight=jambiya

The rib on your new purchase is squared which to me seems two pieces pressed together.

Lew

Hi Lew,
I hoped you would reply to this, and thanks for the link to the previous thread. I see that I replied to that one at the time also, and my thoughts/cautions re Yemeni blades was expressed then. I can imagine that in a poor country, cheap methods of manufacture would prevail for the "masses" but I would still like opinions regarding the genuine-ness (if its a correct word) of these sandwich blades. Your comments in the previous thread regarding age is very helpful, and I would like to comment about a much older piece, but the Forum rules do not allow me to do this at the moment.
Sufficient to say that the piece shown in the pic, has according to the seller, a solid blade. I can only assume from that comment, that its is not two piece. When it arrives I will know more, and by then I should be able to make further comment within the rules also.

Thanks also to Michael for his historical input to these different blade making styles. He confirms my suspicion that the two piece construction is much cheaper and easier to make. The fact that these were made as a type for the poorer person, also confirms for me these these are indeed a genuine article, and not just something cheap to lure tourists.
Regards Stuart

Steve · 25th August 2009, 04:53 AM

Hi Guys,
I may be able to shead a little light onto the squared rib debate on the jambiya blade. It's my experience that the rib is squared to that the dagger can fit neatly into the scabbard. As the scabbards are made in bulk as a separate process to the making of the dagger, they are not fitted uniquely and are of variable quality. In other words the scabbard is nowadays not uniquely made for each dagger. Some craftsmanship has been lost over the years in this area. So they adjust the rib on the blade by grinding so as to produce a snug fit.

The extension of this process is that a squared rib is usually indicative of a more recent manufacture, or blade replacement, but can apply to a solid as well as a hollow blade.

My observation only,
Steve

kahnjar1 · 25th August 2009, 07:05 AM

Hi Steve,
I personally do not think that square vs rounded has anything to do with the scabbard fit. Most, if not all the scabbards of Jambiyas/Khanjars I have in my collection do NOT have "fitted" scabbard centres, but are as shown in this pic: simply a curved profile on both internal sides. IF scabbards are made in bulk and mated with Jambiya at a later stage, the more important aspect would be to do with blade length, width and curvature.
Regards Stu

Steve · 25th August 2009, 09:18 AM

Hi stu,
Just a quick reply across the Tasman while the rest of the world sleeps.

As you would appreciate in years past the manufacture of the jambiya had very specific specialisation of labour. Once the blade and hilt were chosen and fitted, the scabbard was made to fit - with or without silver mounts. The scabbard was altered to accommodate the dagger.

Today they are still made separately - the scabbard in house and the mass blades shaped from blanks in the souq. However the dagger blade is shaped by template - lenghth, width, curve etc. as you mentioned -to fit a scabbard type and any final adjustments are made to the dagger blade when fitting. This often involves a flat rib profile which provides a more universal fit. This I have seen. A thickened ridge line is usually found in the more desirable and older Hadrami blades. I also have a few daggers very similar to your one with the grind flattening marks on the ridge still visible.

With regards your last photo posted above. I think the dagger in your first set of photos would be made to fit the usual scabbard design now mostly made. That is "asseb" style,flat, thin, wide, wood liners and covered with green or tan leather. The wood liners in your last photo are made and fitted differently.

All very interesting,
Regards,
Steve

kahnjar1 · 25th August 2009, 10:18 AM

Hi Steve,
The last pic relates to the other pics and is the same scabbard, not from another Jambiya. I bow to your knowledge regarding the manufacture of these things. I do know that old Jambiyas/Khanjars were tribal items, hence I would have thought a certain lack of standardisation, though similar in regional shape. I have a number of Omani Khanjar, and while the basic shape is constant, the "sizing" is not.
You have PM
Regards Stuart

Lew · 25th August 2009, 01:42 PM

Steve

The squared rib is the product of the die used in the press and not the result of someone trying to get a better fit in the scabbard. Wood and leather do give so even if the rib was a few microns or a mm off they would fit.

Oriental-Arms · 25th August 2009, 05:48 PM

For the benefits of us who are not sure what is the meaning of two pieces blade or sandwich blade or whatever you call it, I took the liberty to show a close up of such a blade which I spared and opened the welding (It was easier than easy).

And fully opened:

I have never been to Yemen and never seen how it is being done (I wish I could but due to certain political obstacles I can not do it). But in my very humble opinion, at least the blade shown above is of very poor quality. It is made of two thin, 0.5 mm thick, galvanized iron sheet pressed in a die (see Lew comment above) and badly welded (not soldered), which make the task of splitting it open very easy. In my very humble opinion, the round rib or the squared rib is only a question of who pressed the blade on what die.

I am afraid we can not regard it as a weapon or a tool and only hardly accept it as a traditional costume artifact.

kahnjar1 · 26th August 2009, 09:24 AM

Hi Artzi,
Thank you for your interesting pics, and your input. I have seen sandwich blades which are only spot welded every couple of inches along the edge.
This is usually very evident in any pics of the blades.
I think it would be fair to say that you have put my mind at rest regarding these blades being genuine or not. By "genuine" I mean a weapon blade. I will continue to avoid them.
Regards Stuart

Gonzalo G · 29th August 2009, 07:48 AM

I don´t know if I understood well. Does it means that the yemeni two-pieced blade jambyyas have the rib arisen from the inside, meanwhile the one piece blades have the ribs forged from the surface? Does anybody knows what kind of tools are used to do the last operation? Is it a female swage kit with the negative form of the rib to forge it over hot metal, or it is made in other way? The rib is forged over a straight blade, latter curved, or is forged over the already curved blade? Thank you in advance for the information you can give to me on this matter.
Regards

Gonzalo

Michael Blalock · 29th August 2009, 06:30 PM

Here you will find many answers to your questions.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iXpDjvuj9f4

The feed is very slow though.

Michael Blalock · 29th August 2009, 06:42 PM

Here is part 2. Making the scabbard. We may look at the displays of Jambiyas in shops as made for tourists but the Yemenis obviously take a lot of pride in manufacture of these.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fblhiKMOPvI

kahnjar1 · 30th August 2009, 08:29 AM

Hi Michael,
Thanks for the two You Tube links. Interesting to see the process, I can see that I will have to improve my anglegrinder skills!

I think this confirms my observations, that most of the items coming up regularly on "THAT AUCTION SITE" are indeed very modern items, and in my humble opinion not worthy of wasting $ on.
Regards Stuart

kronckew · 30th August 2009, 08:59 PM

amazingly short tangs on them...

Berkley · 31st August 2009, 04:59 AM

This article suggests another reason for the proliferation of inexpensive jambiyas:

Quote:

The number of jambiya thefts has been greater this year than ever before, said Abdul-Salaam al-Shibami of the Sana’a police department in Bab al-Yemen.*...In recent years, people have started avoiding dressing up with a nice jambiya, for fear of experiencing such an incident.* Costly jambiyas are generally worn only on special occasions, not in daily life. Ateeq Abdullah Mis’ead, head of a tribe in Dhammar, says that in the past, as well as in some places today, people base their respect for each other on the kind of jambiyas they wear.* In those days, said Mis’ead, your value depended on the value of the jambiya you were wearing. “If you wore an expensive jambiya, you were considered a big man, and people would respect you more than they would the average person. The jambiya had great value to it in the past,” Mis’ead said. “Today it is the opposite—people avoid wearing pricey jambiyas, fearing that it could bring them more bad than good, and could even be life threatening.”....According to the latest World Bank Report, 42 percent of Yemen’s 21 million people live under the U.S. $2 per day, which means that it would take one year and a half of work for an average Yemeni to earn the cost of a jambiya.* Moreover, the most encouraging factor for jambiya thieves is that jambiyas are very easy to sell, and the prices are known, and demand for expensive jambiya’s is higher than ever.* “All thieves’ have to do is walk into a jambiya shop with an I.D. and they can sell it in minutes. In Old Sana’a, there are over 30 jambiya shops and all the shops wait anxiously for people trying to sell their jambiyas.

Gonzalo G · 2nd September 2009, 03:07 AM

Thank you for your answer, Michael. I will look for the videos.
Regards

Gonzalo

24th August 2009, 10:09 PM	#1
kahnjar1 Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: CHRISTCHURCH NEW ZEALAND Posts: 2,741	Jambiya Blade Construction I would like some comment on the construction methods of ribbed Jambiya/Khanjar blades. I notice that a lot of these, particularly later/modern examples originating, particularly from Yemen, are constructed in two pieces, and then fused together in some manner. I personally have always regarded these as "not genuine", but simply a method of easily forging blades to attach to mass produced Jambiya. There are however some modern pieces which do have a solid blade. I have very recently taken a chance on one of these, described as having a "one piece blade", and although I do not regard it as old, it does, at a VERY cheap price, fill a small gap in my collection until I have the serious funds available to replace it with the real thing. I do not yet have it to hand, so can not really comment any further until it arrives. Pics are sellers. Meanwhile, I would be most interested to hear comments re these two piece blades. Regards Stuart Attached Images

25th August 2009, 07:05 AM	#6
kahnjar1 Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: CHRISTCHURCH NEW ZEALAND Posts: 2,741	Hi Steve, I personally do not think that square vs rounded has anything to do with the scabbard fit. Most, if not all the scabbards of Jambiyas/Khanjars I have in my collection do NOT have "fitted" scabbard centres, but are as shown in this pic: simply a curved profile on both internal sides. IF scabbards are made in bulk and mated with Jambiya at a later stage, the more important aspect would be to do with blade length, width and curvature. Regards Stu Attached Images

25th August 2009, 05:48 PM	#10
Oriental-Arms Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Haifa, Israel Posts: 183	Sandwich blade For the benefits of us who are not sure what is the meaning of two pieces blade or sandwich blade or whatever you call it, I took the liberty to show a close up of such a blade which I spared and opened the welding (It was easier than easy). And fully opened: I have never been to Yemen and never seen how it is being done (I wish I could but due to certain political obstacles I can not do it). But in my very humble opinion, at least the blade shown above is of very poor quality. It is made of two thin, 0.5 mm thick, galvanized iron sheet pressed in a die (see Lew comment above) and badly welded (not soldered), which make the task of splitting it open very easy. In my very humble opinion, the round rib or the squared rib is only a question of who pressed the blade on what die. I am afraid we can not regard it as a weapon or a tool and only hardly accept it as a traditional costume artifact.

29th August 2009, 06:42 PM	#14
Michael Blalock Member Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: dc Posts: 271	Here is part 2. Making the scabbard. We may look at the displays of Jambiyas in shops as made for tourists but the Yemenis obviously take a lot of pride in manufacture of these. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fblhiKMOPvI Last edited by Michael Blalock; 29th August 2009 at 06:58 PM.

24th August 2009, 11:39 PM	#2
Michael Blalock Member Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: dc Posts: 271	While the Jambiyas with two piece blades are not the better ones, they should not necessarily be disregarded as tourist pieces. Having lived in Yemen before the existence of tourism in that country I used to watch a few jambiya makers in their shops in the Taiz souk. I only witnessed the fabrication of the two piece jambiyas with zebu horn. The jambiya maker sat cross legged in a small space. With a water pipe, a small anvil, a white gas blow torch to heat and braze the blade. I recall that they used a garden spade shaped tool to work the rib into the metal. They would periodically heat the blade with the blow torch. Every Yemeni man wore a Jambiya. Jambiyas were even made for young boys. I am wearing one of these child’s Jambiyas in my avatar. With a population of several million at that time there must have been a demand for hundreds or thousands of new Jambiya’s each day. I recall that my Jambiya was about 2-3 reals and my dad brought the fine ones for 20-30 reals. I think the exchange rate was 4 reals to the dollar and those were silver Maria Theresa Thallers. Our servants were paid one real per day. Even today, Yemen is an impoverished country with a population of 24 million. For 40% of the population the average daily income is less than a dollar. I would bet the vast majority of Yemenis can only afford these two pieces blades.

24th August 2009, 11:59 PM	#3
Lew (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: East Coast USA Posts: 3,191	Stuart I approached this subject some time ago here is the link. http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...hlight=jambiya The rib on your new purchase is squared which to me seems two pieces pressed together. Lew

25th August 2009, 04:53 AM	#5
Steve Member Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: Sydney Posts: 58	Hi Guys, I may be able to shead a little light onto the squared rib debate on the jambiya blade. It's my experience that the rib is squared to that the dagger can fit neatly into the scabbard. As the scabbards are made in bulk as a separate process to the making of the dagger, they are not fitted uniquely and are of variable quality. In other words the scabbard is nowadays not uniquely made for each dagger. Some craftsmanship has been lost over the years in this area. So they adjust the rib on the blade by grinding so as to produce a snug fit. The extension of this process is that a squared rib is usually indicative of a more recent manufacture, or blade replacement, but can apply to a solid as well as a hollow blade. My observation only, Steve

25th August 2009, 09:18 AM	#7
Steve Member Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: Sydney Posts: 58	Hi stu, Just a quick reply across the Tasman while the rest of the world sleeps. As you would appreciate in years past the manufacture of the jambiya had very specific specialisation of labour. Once the blade and hilt were chosen and fitted, the scabbard was made to fit - with or without silver mounts. The scabbard was altered to accommodate the dagger. Today they are still made separately - the scabbard in house and the mass blades shaped from blanks in the souq. However the dagger blade is shaped by template - lenghth, width, curve etc. as you mentioned -to fit a scabbard type and any final adjustments are made to the dagger blade when fitting. This often involves a flat rib profile which provides a more universal fit. This I have seen. A thickened ridge line is usually found in the more desirable and older Hadrami blades. I also have a few daggers very similar to your one with the grind flattening marks on the ridge still visible. With regards your last photo posted above. I think the dagger in your first set of photos would be made to fit the usual scabbard design now mostly made. That is "asseb" style,flat, thin, wide, wood liners and covered with green or tan leather. The wood liners in your last photo are made and fitted differently. All very interesting, Regards, Steve

25th August 2009, 10:18 AM	#8
kahnjar1 Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: CHRISTCHURCH NEW ZEALAND Posts: 2,741	Hi Steve, The last pic relates to the other pics and is the same scabbard, not from another Jambiya. I bow to your knowledge regarding the manufacture of these things. I do know that old Jambiyas/Khanjars were tribal items, hence I would have thought a certain lack of standardisation, though similar in regional shape. I have a number of Omani Khanjar, and while the basic shape is constant, the "sizing" is not. You have PM Regards Stuart

25th August 2009, 01:42 PM	#9
Lew (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: East Coast USA Posts: 3,191	Steve The squared rib is the product of the die used in the press and not the result of someone trying to get a better fit in the scabbard. Wood and leather do give so even if the rib was a few microns or a mm off they would fit.

26th August 2009, 09:24 AM	#11
kahnjar1 Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: CHRISTCHURCH NEW ZEALAND Posts: 2,741	Hi Artzi, Thank you for your interesting pics, and your input. I have seen sandwich blades which are only spot welded every couple of inches along the edge. This is usually very evident in any pics of the blades. I think it would be fair to say that you have put my mind at rest regarding these blades being genuine or not. By "genuine" I mean a weapon blade. I will continue to avoid them. Regards Stuart

29th August 2009, 07:48 AM	#12
Gonzalo G Member Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Nothern Mexico Posts: 458	I don´t know if I understood well. Does it means that the yemeni two-pieced blade jambyyas have the rib arisen from the inside, meanwhile the one piece blades have the ribs forged from the surface? Does anybody knows what kind of tools are used to do the last operation? Is it a female swage kit with the negative form of the rib to forge it over hot metal, or it is made in other way? The rib is forged over a straight blade, latter curved, or is forged over the already curved blade? Thank you in advance for the information you can give to me on this matter. Regards Gonzalo

29th August 2009, 06:30 PM	#13
Michael Blalock Member Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: dc Posts: 271	Here you will find many answers to your questions. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iXpDjvuj9f4 The feed is very slow though.

30th August 2009, 08:29 AM	#15
kahnjar1 Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: CHRISTCHURCH NEW ZEALAND Posts: 2,741	Hi Michael, Thanks for the two You Tube links. Interesting to see the process, I can see that I will have to improve my anglegrinder skills! I think this confirms my observations, that most of the items coming up regularly on "THAT AUCTION SITE" are indeed very modern items, and in my humble opinion not worthy of wasting $ on. Regards Stuart

30th August 2009, 08:59 PM	#16
kronckew Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Room 101, Glos. UK Posts: 4,187	amazingly short tangs on them...

2nd September 2009, 03:07 AM	#18
Gonzalo G Member Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Nothern Mexico Posts: 458	Thank you for your answer, Michael. I will look for the videos. Regards Gonzalo