Yataghan Spot the Difference

Rumpel · 19th October 2010, 02:43 PM

Here's a rum thing...

Can anyone see the similarities in the decoration on the following yats? Hint: Crudely chiselled identical decoration, anomalous inscriptions and illegible maker's marks on blades attached to widely differing hilts...

The relevant yats are to be found in these threads:

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=12424

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...light=yataghan

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=11535 (this one being mine)

and, at a pinch, : http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...light=yataghan

So, of all the yataghans in all the world, three/four from what looks to be the same atelier happen to come on the market at the same time, with completely different fittings? Discuss...

David · 19th October 2010, 05:03 PM

Well i don't see any great conspiracy if that's what you are implying. All these blades have a very similar traditional pattern to be sure, but they are clearly done by different hands at different times with different degrees of workmanship.

Lew · 19th October 2010, 05:18 PM

I'm with David I see no reason to think there is any conspiracy going on here just some old Yataghans from different makers. Maybe since yataghans are become more popular to collect these days we are just seeing more examples for sale.

TVV · 19th October 2010, 06:34 PM

Rumpel,

Browsing Elgood's latest book, plus the Turkish and Croatian yataghan catalogues, it becomes rather apparent that the blades and hilts for yataghans were not often produced in the same shop or even in the same town. In fact, in many cases there were production centers for the blades, and then those blades were shipped to the various parts of the Ottoman Empire, where they were hilted according to local fashion.

To confirm that all these blades are indeed from the same maker, their dating needs to be within a few years and they all have to be marked from the same maker. Just looking at them, you can see that the stamps are different, so I do not believe they are from the same smith.

Regards,
Teodor

Rumpel · 23rd October 2010, 01:10 AM

Well, I'm obviously in a minority of one here. What can I say, it's a gut thing?

Certainly, from having read Elgood myself (though not much else), I would have thought it were luxury trade blades, say wootz inlaid with gold calligraphy, swooping across stylistic boundaries for the handles rather than objectively mediocre provincial work.

While I'm not qualified to assess the blades, the calligraphy on, say, the lower three blades seems, to me, identical. That is, the differences between them are attributible to failure of execution rather than variety of intention. While not an Arabic speaker, from the comments kindly placed on the relevant threads, the inscriptions seem unusually anomalous- illegible, or outside the usual tenor or style. In a distinctly unscientific way, when I look at them, I feel the way I do when I handle Derra-made jezails...

Through the half-remembered ghost of anthropological semi-expertise, I'd have said that a long-running traditional style of decoration would be well-represented in published, well provenanced or pre-20th century collections.

I'm a novice, and utterly prepared to accept that my hunch is wrong. That said, I'd be genuinely keen to see any well-provenanced examples of the above decoration any other collectors here might possess, if only for reassurance. I'm thinking of selling the yat and want to do it in good conscience.

Rumpel.

Sylektis · 24th October 2010, 10:06 PM

Look this book...
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...BOOK+YATAGHANS
and three more examples.
But it could be very interesting to search and publish someone the arm's workshops. The seals,signatures and designs on blades help i think.

Sylektis · 24th October 2010, 10:35 PM

And the lost photo...

Rumpel · 30th October 2010, 01:20 AM

Sylektis, thanks for the photos. I guess I should feel reassured, and I do in a slightly red-faced way...

Are those photos from the NHM in Athens, or the Ali Pasha museum in Ioannina? Part of the reason I was wary about the inscriptions is I'd seen many identical ones in that little place off the Flea Market, if you know where I mean. Perhaps too many...

You're right, I think there's a gap in the market for yataghan catalogues of the less-than-pasha quality. In an odd way, I suppose it's exciting how speculative analysis is even on a forum like this.

Anyway, efharisto para poli yia voithia sou me to Yataghani pragmati (sorry, my Greek's appalling...

)

David · 1st November 2010, 06:22 PM

Here's one more for you Rumpel in post #8.

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=10672

David · 1st November 2010, 06:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rumpel

Are those photos from the NHM in Athens, or the Ali Pasha museum in Ioannina? Part of the reason I was wary about the inscriptions is I'd seen many identical ones in that little place off the Flea Market, if you know where I mean. Perhaps too many...

If you followed the link provided Rumpel you would see that the images in this book come from a museum in Zagreb.

Rumpel · 1st November 2010, 06:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by David

If you followed the link provided Rumpel you would see that the images in this book come from a museum in Zagreb.

Hi David, sorry, I meant the 1st and last photos Sylektis provided, with the provenance info in Greek next to them- presumably from a Greek museum.

Thanks for the link to the Pandour post. Curiouser and curiouser... I need to get that Zagreb catalogue, I think.

David · 1st November 2010, 08:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rumpel

Hi David, sorry, I meant the 1st and last photos Sylektis provided, with the provenance info in Greek next to them- presumably from a Greek museum.

Thanks for the link to the Pandour post. Curiouser and curiouser... I need to get that Zagreb catalogue, I think.

Oh, i see....sorry for the misunderstanding...

Sylektis · 1st November 2010, 09:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rumpel

Sylektis, thanks for the photos. I guess I should feel reassured, and I do in a slightly red-faced way...

Are those photos from the NHM in Athens, or the Ali Pasha museum in Ioannina? Part of the reason I was wary about the inscriptions is I'd seen many identical ones in that little place off the Flea Market, if you know where I mean. Perhaps too many...

You're right, I think there's a gap in the market for yataghan catalogues of the less-than-pasha quality. In an odd way, I suppose it's exciting how speculative analysis is even on a forum like this.

Anyway, efharisto para poli yia voithia sou me to Yataghani pragmati (sorry, my Greek's appalling...

)

The 1 and 4 are from the NHM in Athens (also in Elgood book foto 164), the others from auctions.

In all these blades can anyone read dates?

19th October 2010, 02:43 PM	#1
Rumpel Member Join Date: Aug 2009 Posts: 63	Yataghan Spot the Difference Here's a rum thing... Can anyone see the similarities in the decoration on the following yats? Hint: Crudely chiselled identical decoration, anomalous inscriptions and illegible maker's marks on blades attached to widely differing hilts... The relevant yats are to be found in these threads: http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=12424 http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...light=yataghan http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=11535 (this one being mine) and, at a pinch, : http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...light=yataghan So, of all the yataghans in all the world, three/four from what looks to be the same atelier happen to come on the market at the same time, with completely different fittings? Discuss... Attached Images

24th October 2010, 10:06 PM	#6
Sylektis Member Join Date: Jan 2009 Posts: 136	Look this book... http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...BOOK+YATAGHANS and three more examples. But it could be very interesting to search and publish someone the arm's workshops. The seals,signatures and designs on blades help i think. Attached Images

24th October 2010, 10:35 PM	#7
Sylektis Member Join Date: Jan 2009 Posts: 136	And the lost photo... Attached Images

19th October 2010, 05:03 PM	#2
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,123	Well i don't see any great conspiracy if that's what you are implying. All these blades have a very similar traditional pattern to be sure, but they are clearly done by different hands at different times with different degrees of workmanship.

19th October 2010, 05:18 PM	#3
Lew (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: East Coast USA Posts: 3,191	I'm with David I see no reason to think there is any conspiracy going on here just some old Yataghans from different makers. Maybe since yataghans are become more popular to collect these days we are just seeing more examples for sale.

19th October 2010, 06:34 PM	#4
TVV Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Bay Area Posts: 1,623	Rumpel, Browsing Elgood's latest book, plus the Turkish and Croatian yataghan catalogues, it becomes rather apparent that the blades and hilts for yataghans were not often produced in the same shop or even in the same town. In fact, in many cases there were production centers for the blades, and then those blades were shipped to the various parts of the Ottoman Empire, where they were hilted according to local fashion. To confirm that all these blades are indeed from the same maker, their dating needs to be within a few years and they all have to be marked from the same maker. Just looking at them, you can see that the stamps are different, so I do not believe they are from the same smith. Regards, Teodor

23rd October 2010, 01:10 AM	#5
Rumpel Member Join Date: Aug 2009 Posts: 63	Well, I'm obviously in a minority of one here. What can I say, it's a gut thing? Certainly, from having read Elgood myself (though not much else), I would have thought it were luxury trade blades, say wootz inlaid with gold calligraphy, swooping across stylistic boundaries for the handles rather than objectively mediocre provincial work. While I'm not qualified to assess the blades, the calligraphy on, say, the lower three blades seems, to me, identical. That is, the differences between them are attributible to failure of execution rather than variety of intention. While not an Arabic speaker, from the comments kindly placed on the relevant threads, the inscriptions seem unusually anomalous- illegible, or outside the usual tenor or style. In a distinctly unscientific way, when I look at them, I feel the way I do when I handle Derra-made jezails... Through the half-remembered ghost of anthropological semi-expertise, I'd have said that a long-running traditional style of decoration would be well-represented in published, well provenanced or pre-20th century collections. I'm a novice, and utterly prepared to accept that my hunch is wrong. That said, I'd be genuinely keen to see any well-provenanced examples of the above decoration any other collectors here might possess, if only for reassurance. I'm thinking of selling the yat and want to do it in good conscience. Rumpel.

30th October 2010, 01:20 AM	#8
Rumpel Member Join Date: Aug 2009 Posts: 63	Sylektis, thanks for the photos. I guess I should feel reassured, and I do in a slightly red-faced way... Are those photos from the NHM in Athens, or the Ali Pasha museum in Ioannina? Part of the reason I was wary about the inscriptions is I'd seen many identical ones in that little place off the Flea Market, if you know where I mean. Perhaps too many... You're right, I think there's a gap in the market for yataghan catalogues of the less-than-pasha quality. In an odd way, I suppose it's exciting how speculative analysis is even on a forum like this. Anyway, efharisto para poli yia voithia sou me to Yataghani pragmati (sorry, my Greek's appalling... )

1st November 2010, 06:22 PM	#9
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,123	Here's one more for you Rumpel in post #8. http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=10672