Nice Manding Sword For Comment

Lew · 10th December 2005, 05:30 AM

Hi All

This auction just ended and I just missed getting sniped by $2

http://cgi.ebay.com/OLD-African-Mand...QQcmdZViewItem

The sword seems to have a nice European blade on it? The leather work is real nice also.

Lew

Andrew · 10th December 2005, 06:16 AM

Nice looking sword, Lew.

The fullering looks European to me, but the tip is somehow odd.

Lew · 10th December 2005, 08:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Andrew

Nice looking sword, Lew.

The fullering looks European to me, but the tip is somehow odd.

Andrew

Sometimes these swords were reground to fit a particular look or style. I have another one like this where the tip was actually reforged maybe due to an old break. I will post better pics once it arrives. I did a little search and I am pretty sure the blade came from FRENCH 1822 PATTERN CAVALRY SWORD there is one on Michael D Longs website that is a dead ringer for mine tip and all.

Lew

Tim Simmons · 10th December 2005, 09:24 AM

Great buy!!

Andrew · 11th December 2005, 07:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LOUIEBLADES

Andrew

Sometimes these swords were reground to fit a particular look or style. I have another one like this where the tip was actually reforged maybe due to an old break. I will post better pics once it arrives. I did a little search and I am pretty sure the blade came from FRENCH 1822 PATTERN CAVALRY SWORD there is one on Michael D Longs website that is a dead ringer for mine tip and all.

Lew

Thanks, Lew. It's possible I know less about European sabers than I do about these swords. And that's saying something.

Lew · 17th December 2005, 07:06 PM

Hi Guys

Just arrived so hear is a good picture of the sword. Definately an old French or European blade.

Lew

Jim McDougall · 18th December 2005, 11:10 PM

Hi Lew,
That is an absolutely fantastic sabre!!! I agree that the hollow ground blade is most likely from a French cavalry sabre of probably mid 19th c. If I am not mistaken the cross section is known as 'Montmorency' form, popular on military sabres in the early 19th c. and named for the French officer who developed it. It also seems most of these were Klingenthal blades and usually marked on the back toward the blade root, it seems the hilt is covering that part of the blade on yours.
The Mandinga are a tribal group that are from regions of the Upper Niger that inhabit the western Sudan. The Fulani call them generally 'Malinke' which is actually one of the larger distinguishable groups and typically are found in the upper valleys of the Niger. I recall talking with a Fulani who was from Guinea and showing him a photo of one of these sabres. He immediately recognized it and indicated the term they called these by was 'kota' (probably loosely meaning sword of course) and noted the scabbard was called 'holga' (meaning loosely 'house').

Best regards,
Jim

Emanuel · 19th December 2005, 04:09 AM

Hello,

The manding sword is quite beautiful, even without the French blade it seems much more refined than the croc skin kaskara. Was the tip of the blade modified? The angle seems very acute for european sabre blades. I don't mean to hijack this thread, but does this sword http://cgi.ebay.ca/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?...MEWA%3AIT&rd=1
also carry a French sabre blade? Are such large fullers characteristic of 18th-19th century sabres?

Manolo

Jim McDougall · 19th December 2005, 06:01 AM

Hi Manolo,
The sabre you have linked does have what appears to be a European blade, probably French or German. What is interesting is the very deep parabolic curve. It seems that during the Napoleonic campaigns in Egypt, encounters with the Mamluks gave attention to the sabres they used, and blades of this type were sought by officers of both France and England for thier personal swords. The sabre you show may be French, but the mounts are completely atypical and seem certainly reasonably modern.
The fullering is very typical of European sabres of the 18th and 19th centuries and is usually termed hollow ground, for the wide removal of material to lighten the blade.
I have an English sabre of c.1800 which has a blade of extremely parabolic curve, and a sharp point which was unusual for this period, as most sabres favored the widely radiused hatchet point. It would seem that French versions of parabolic curve of this period might have a sharp point as well.
Best regards,
Jim

Lew · 19th December 2005, 09:02 AM

[QUOTE=Manolo]Hello,

The manding sword is quite beautiful, even without the French blade it seems much more refined than the croc skin kaskara. Was the tip of the blade modified? The angle seems very acute for european sabre blades.

Manolo

As far as I can tell the tip is original with no modifications. I will try to post a closeup sometime later today. If you go to http://www.michaeldlong.net/ there is an example of a sword with the same blade you will find it under the French swords section and this is the item number.
98763 FRENCH 1822 PATTERN CAVALRY SWORD SCABBARD

Lew

Emanuel · 20th December 2005, 01:24 AM

Hello Jim,
Thanks for clearing up these questions for me, same goes for the kaskara. I was aware of the influences Mameluk sabres had on Napoleon's forces, even he kept a number of famous ones as I recall. On blades with slighter curvature such as the one on this manding, I guess the point can well be used to stab, but on the extremely curved cavalry examples it would be of little use, if not aesthetic.
Lew, thank you for the link, it's a very usefull site. I see that deep ground was indeed quite even in 18th c. blades. Is it a relatively new development? As I recall medieval swords did not sport such wide, deep fullers, so -to me at least- it seems like a feature adapted from renaissance/baroque rapiers. Furthermore, did they become so popular on account of cavalry sabres?

So far I've accorded little interest to European blades, but they certainly have their beauty and merits.

Manolo

Jim McDougall · 20th December 2005, 02:33 AM

Hi Manolo,
Glad I could help, and I appreciate your response

With the study of ethnographic weapons, the presence of many European trade and military blades is almost standard. In Saharan regions many French military blades from occupational forces found thier way into native hilts throughout the 19th century. In my opinion, this adds so much more dimension to the heritage of these weapons and makes them all the more fascinating!
All the best,
Jim

10th December 2005, 05:30 AM	#1
Lew (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: East Coast USA Posts: 3,191	Nice Manding Sword For Comment Hi All This auction just ended and I just missed getting sniped by $2 http://cgi.ebay.com/OLD-African-Mand...QQcmdZViewItem The sword seems to have a nice European blade on it? The leather work is real nice also. Lew

17th December 2005, 07:06 PM	#6
Lew (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: East Coast USA Posts: 3,191	Hi Guys Just arrived so hear is a good picture of the sword. Definately an old French or European blade. Lew Attached Images

10th December 2005, 06:16 AM	#2
Andrew Member Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: USA Posts: 1,725	Nice looking sword, Lew. The fullering looks European to me, but the tip is somehow odd.

10th December 2005, 09:24 AM	#4
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,807	Great buy!!

18th December 2005, 11:10 PM	#7
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,951	Hi Lew, That is an absolutely fantastic sabre!!! I agree that the hollow ground blade is most likely from a French cavalry sabre of probably mid 19th c. If I am not mistaken the cross section is known as 'Montmorency' form, popular on military sabres in the early 19th c. and named for the French officer who developed it. It also seems most of these were Klingenthal blades and usually marked on the back toward the blade root, it seems the hilt is covering that part of the blade on yours. The Mandinga are a tribal group that are from regions of the Upper Niger that inhabit the western Sudan. The Fulani call them generally 'Malinke' which is actually one of the larger distinguishable groups and typically are found in the upper valleys of the Niger. I recall talking with a Fulani who was from Guinea and showing him a photo of one of these sabres. He immediately recognized it and indicated the term they called these by was 'kota' (probably loosely meaning sword of course) and noted the scabbard was called 'holga' (meaning loosely 'house'). Best regards, Jim

19th December 2005, 04:09 AM	#8
Emanuel Member Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Toronto, Canada Posts: 1,242	Hello, The manding sword is quite beautiful, even without the French blade it seems much more refined than the croc skin kaskara. Was the tip of the blade modified? The angle seems very acute for european sabre blades. I don't mean to hijack this thread, but does this sword http://cgi.ebay.ca/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?...MEWA%3AIT&rd=1 also carry a French sabre blade? Are such large fullers characteristic of 18th-19th century sabres? Manolo

19th December 2005, 06:01 AM	#9
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,951	Hi Manolo, The sabre you have linked does have what appears to be a European blade, probably French or German. What is interesting is the very deep parabolic curve. It seems that during the Napoleonic campaigns in Egypt, encounters with the Mamluks gave attention to the sabres they used, and blades of this type were sought by officers of both France and England for thier personal swords. The sabre you show may be French, but the mounts are completely atypical and seem certainly reasonably modern. The fullering is very typical of European sabres of the 18th and 19th centuries and is usually termed hollow ground, for the wide removal of material to lighten the blade. I have an English sabre of c.1800 which has a blade of extremely parabolic curve, and a sharp point which was unusual for this period, as most sabres favored the widely radiused hatchet point. It would seem that French versions of parabolic curve of this period might have a sharp point as well. Best regards, Jim

19th December 2005, 09:02 AM	#10
Lew (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: East Coast USA Posts: 3,191	[QUOTE=Manolo]Hello, The manding sword is quite beautiful, even without the French blade it seems much more refined than the croc skin kaskara. Was the tip of the blade modified? The angle seems very acute for european sabre blades. Manolo As far as I can tell the tip is original with no modifications. I will try to post a closeup sometime later today. If you go to http://www.michaeldlong.net/ there is an example of a sword with the same blade you will find it under the French swords section and this is the item number. 98763 FRENCH 1822 PATTERN CAVALRY SWORD SCABBARD Lew

20th December 2005, 01:24 AM	#11
Emanuel Member Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Toronto, Canada Posts: 1,242	Hello Jim, Thanks for clearing up these questions for me, same goes for the kaskara. I was aware of the influences Mameluk sabres had on Napoleon's forces, even he kept a number of famous ones as I recall. On blades with slighter curvature such as the one on this manding, I guess the point can well be used to stab, but on the extremely curved cavalry examples it would be of little use, if not aesthetic. Lew, thank you for the link, it's a very usefull site. I see that deep ground was indeed quite even in 18th c. blades. Is it a relatively new development? As I recall medieval swords did not sport such wide, deep fullers, so -to me at least- it seems like a feature adapted from renaissance/baroque rapiers. Furthermore, did they become so popular on account of cavalry sabres? So far I've accorded little interest to European blades, but they certainly have their beauty and merits. Manolo

20th December 2005, 02:33 AM	#12
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,951	Hi Manolo, Glad I could help, and I appreciate your response With the study of ethnographic weapons, the presence of many European trade and military blades is almost standard. In Saharan regions many French military blades from occupational forces found thier way into native hilts throughout the 19th century. In my opinion, this adds so much more dimension to the heritage of these weapons and makes them all the more fascinating! All the best, Jim