Powder horn and unidentified object

AHorsa · 12th March 2020, 04:43 PM

Hi there,

I just got those two object. Can anyone date the powder horn? I think it should be 16th to 17th century?!

It came with this 35cm long "ramrod" but actually I really doubt it is a ramrod. It is made from iron. The tip in form of a stylized lion is made from brass.

Would be great if someone can identify those pieces.

Best regards
Andreas

kahnjar1 · 12th March 2020, 08:51 PM

Hi Andreas,
Just a suggestion about the "ramrod"......could it be a spike for clearing the touch hole of a cannon?
Stu

adrian · 12th March 2020, 09:10 PM

That spike/rod is too large in diameter to enter the vent of an artillery piece.

AHorsa · 14th March 2020, 03:52 PM

Thanks for the comments! Anyone else an idea about this piece?

BAW · 15th March 2020, 12:00 AM

The shape of the unknown object is very similar to a butchers' steel for sharpening knives.

AHorsa · 15th March 2020, 12:29 PM

I think for a butcher´s steel the lion (which tahn would be the hilt) is too small. Also the shape of the lion´s "noise" wouldn´t make sens then, as it semms to be supposed to push something.

fernando · 15th March 2020, 01:27 PM

Why descarding the ramrod possibility, guys ?
In some cultures the ramrod is a separate device, often intrincate and highly decorated. You take the Turkish "Suma", for one (Stone page 587).
Say Andreas, which is the thickness of that rod you are showing us?

.

AHorsa · 15th March 2020, 05:14 PM

Hi Fernando,

thanks for the input. The thikness of the iron part is max. 1,3cm, the lion is max. 1,5cm

Cheers
Andreas

rickystl · 16th March 2020, 08:34 AM

Hi Andreas

The flask looks to be a late 16th to early 17th Century staghorn type poeder flask. Although the metal parts are missing and the engraving seems a bit crude. Possibly done by an amature/hobbist on their first attempt. Here is a Forum Link from about 8 years ago that will give you a better idea of it's origins with comment from Matchlock. I was very fortunate to receive his comments.

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=14271

The length of that rod would be about correct for many pistols. So it could be a Suma as Fernando mentions - with a spike end to double as a stabbing point in a back-up situation. Just my guess.

Rick

AHorsa · 17th March 2020, 12:18 AM

Hi Rick,

thanks for the link to the very interesting thread. Great to see the variety of examples of this staghorn flasks. Well, the artist of my one wasn´t the gifted one. That poor chap also has a broken sword

I am still not sure about the "ramrod". Suma might be a possibility, but browsing the web I don´t have the feeling that it is one. But it is absolutely not my field...

Best regards
Andreas

Richard G · 17th March 2020, 03:31 PM

Could it be something as mundane as a hefty meat skewer?
Regards
Richard

fernando · 17th March 2020, 03:41 PM

Tell me the place where they serve meat with these skewers, so that i can take out one hidden under my jacket

.

fernando · 17th March 2020, 03:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AHorsa

... Suma might be a possibility, but browsing the web I don´t have the feeling that it is one...

The Suma approach was only a manner to expand on the (any) ram rod possibility.

Richard G · 18th March 2020, 12:16 PM

These?

fernando · 18th March 2020, 02:02 PM

Now, i am largely convinced, Richard

.

AHorsa · 18th May 2023, 11:48 AM

I´d like to push up this thread again, as this rod is still a mistery to me. Maybe meanwhile someone has an idea what it could have been.
I am convinced, that the brass animal part was to mush something, as its "nose" seem. Any ideas appreciated.

Kind regards
Andreas

Raf · 18th May 2023, 03:32 PM

[QUOTE
I am convinced, that the brass animal part was to mush something, as its "nose" seem. Any ideas appreciated.

Surprised no one has mentioned marlin spike. Sailors general purpose tool for rope work and extemporary weapon. I agree that the bronze end looks like it was intended to mush something. Like compacting serpentine powder in a cannon flash pan. Essential to stop it blowing away but this is just a guess. Either way it has an early feel to it.

AHorsa · 18th May 2023, 08:41 PM

Thanks for your thought. Interesting thesis. I don´t know about the exact form of the flash pan. But for mushing I would assume some traces on the head of the animal. But there are only traces of use on the flat nose.
I want to mention, that the iron shaft is also inside the brass animal. I tried to virtualize it. Sorry for my bad drawings skills

That make me assume, that the device was made to hammer at the nose of the animal.

BBJW · 18th May 2023, 08:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rickystl

Hi Andreas

The flask looks to be a late 16th to early 17th Century staghorn type poeder flask. Although the metal parts are missing and the engraving seems a bit crude. Possibly done by an amature/hobbist on their first attempt. Here is a Forum Link from about 8 years ago that will give you a better idea of it's origins with comment from Matchlock. I was very fortunate to receive his comments.

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=14271

The length of that rod would be about correct for many pistols. So it could be a Suma as Fernando mentions - with a spike end to double as a stabbing point in a back-up situation. Just my guess.

Rick

Agreed.--bbjw

12th March 2020, 04:43 PM	#1
AHorsa Member Join Date: May 2014 Location: Rhineland Posts: 367	Powder horn and unidentified object Hi there, I just got those two object. Can anyone date the powder horn? I think it should be 16th to 17th century?! It came with this 35cm long "ramrod" but actually I really doubt it is a ramrod. It is made from iron. The tip in form of a stylized lion is made from brass. Would be great if someone can identify those pieces. Best regards Andreas Attached Images

15th March 2020, 01:27 PM	#7
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Why descarding the ramrod possibility, guys ? In some cultures the ramrod is a separate device, often intrincate and highly decorated. You take the Turkish "Suma", for one (Stone page 587). Say Andreas, which is the thickness of that rod you are showing us? . Attached Images

18th March 2020, 12:16 PM	#14
Richard G Member Join Date: Jan 2012 Posts: 406	These? Attached Images

18th May 2023, 11:48 AM	#16
AHorsa Member Join Date: May 2014 Location: Rhineland Posts: 367	I´d like to push up this thread again, as this rod is still a mistery to me. Maybe meanwhile someone has an idea what it could have been. I am convinced, that the brass animal part was to mush something, as its "nose" seem. Any ideas appreciated. Kind regards Andreas Attached Images

18th May 2023, 08:41 PM	#18
AHorsa Member Join Date: May 2014 Location: Rhineland Posts: 367	Thanks for your thought. Interesting thesis. I don´t know about the exact form of the flash pan. But for mushing I would assume some traces on the head of the animal. But there are only traces of use on the flat nose. I want to mention, that the iron shaft is also inside the brass animal. I tried to virtualize it. Sorry for my bad drawings skills That make me assume, that the device was made to hammer at the nose of the animal. Attached Images

12th March 2020, 08:51 PM	#2
kahnjar1 Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: CHRISTCHURCH NEW ZEALAND Posts: 2,739	Hi Andreas, Just a suggestion about the "ramrod"......could it be a spike for clearing the touch hole of a cannon? Stu

12th March 2020, 09:10 PM	#3
adrian Member Join Date: Mar 2012 Posts: 125	That spike/rod is too large in diameter to enter the vent of an artillery piece.

14th March 2020, 03:52 PM	#4
AHorsa Member Join Date: May 2014 Location: Rhineland Posts: 367	Thanks for the comments! Anyone else an idea about this piece?

15th March 2020, 12:00 AM	#5
BAW Member Join Date: Nov 2019 Posts: 6	The shape of the unknown object is very similar to a butchers' steel for sharpening knives.

15th March 2020, 12:29 PM	#6
AHorsa Member Join Date: May 2014 Location: Rhineland Posts: 367	I think for a butcher´s steel the lion (which tahn would be the hilt) is too small. Also the shape of the lion´s "noise" wouldn´t make sens then, as it semms to be supposed to push something.

15th March 2020, 05:14 PM	#8
AHorsa Member Join Date: May 2014 Location: Rhineland Posts: 367	Hi Fernando, thanks for the input. The thikness of the iron part is max. 1,3cm, the lion is max. 1,5cm Cheers Andreas

16th March 2020, 08:34 AM	#9
rickystl Member Join Date: Jul 2010 Location: St. Louis, MO area. Posts: 1,623	Hi Andreas The flask looks to be a late 16th to early 17th Century staghorn type poeder flask. Although the metal parts are missing and the engraving seems a bit crude. Possibly done by an amature/hobbist on their first attempt. Here is a Forum Link from about 8 years ago that will give you a better idea of it's origins with comment from Matchlock. I was very fortunate to receive his comments. http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=14271 The length of that rod would be about correct for many pistols. So it could be a Suma as Fernando mentions - with a spike end to double as a stabbing point in a back-up situation. Just my guess. Rick

17th March 2020, 12:18 AM	#10
AHorsa Member Join Date: May 2014 Location: Rhineland Posts: 367	Hi Rick, thanks for the link to the very interesting thread. Great to see the variety of examples of this staghorn flasks. Well, the artist of my one wasn´t the gifted one. That poor chap also has a broken sword I am still not sure about the "ramrod". Suma might be a possibility, but browsing the web I don´t have the feeling that it is one. But it is absolutely not my field... Best regards Andreas

17th March 2020, 03:31 PM	#11
Richard G Member Join Date: Jan 2012 Posts: 406	Could it be something as mundane as a hefty meat skewer? Regards Richard

17th March 2020, 03:41 PM	#12
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Tell me the place where they serve meat with these skewers, so that i can take out one hidden under my jacket .

18th March 2020, 02:02 PM	#15
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Now, i am largely convinced, Richard .

18th May 2023, 03:32 PM	#17
Raf Member Join Date: Nov 2013 Posts: 252	[QUOTE I am convinced, that the brass animal part was to mush something, as its "nose" seem. Any ideas appreciated. Surprised no one has mentioned marlin spike. Sailors general purpose tool for rope work and extemporary weapon. I agree that the bronze end looks like it was intended to mush something. Like compacting serpentine powder in a cannon flash pan. Essential to stop it blowing away but this is just a guess. Either way it has an early feel to it.