Jambiyah with Venetian ducats

thinreadline · 18th January 2012, 12:17 PM

I recently bought this jambiyah at an arms fair along with a big lot of other knives . They all worked out very cheap and the seller would not split the lot. Jambiyahs are not my interest and so I was intending to sell it on at a bargain price .. but failed to do so and brought it home. It was only when I looked closely at the hilt rivets that I saw that they were coins rather than brass discs as I had originally believed . The coin depicted a figure surrounded by stars and a motto REGIS ISTE DUCA plus some unreadable stuff. A bit of research revealed this to be a Venetian gold ducat of the mid 18th C . You can imagine my excitement ... especially when I discovered that the coins were worth £250 each !
However I did think that that seemed improbable on such a low grade dagger. Further research led me to a character named Frederick William Hasluck (1878 – 1920) who was an English antiquarian, historian, and archaeologist . Amongst many items bequeathed by his wife to the British Museum was a collection of fake Venetian ducats which he had acquired in Alexandria in 1910 . I attach a picture of several examples of these from the British Museum collection ( some collected by others than Hasluck ).
It seems that variants of these turned up in India, Arabia and the Levant, as well as Africa . It seems that imitations of these imitations were ( and may still be ) made in India , Egypt , Lebanon, and from the Yemen. Gradually the Christian symbolism of the original Venetian coins morphed into depictions of Hindu deities in the Indian made copies British and perhaps German or Austrian firms also mass-produced the crude Indian or Levantine jewelry imitations that were then exported to India, and also sold to African natives through the colonial trade .
Well I suppose this is a long winded way of saying .. dont take things at face value and dont get too excited especially when you you are dabbling in areas you dont know anything about . But its been fun learning a bit more about all this.
Nevertheless hope springs eternal in the human breast and so as a last ditch I am off to the jewellers to get them tested !

Atlantia · 18th January 2012, 01:33 PM

Hi Richmond,
It's a pretty standard later 20thC Jambiya. From Yemen if I'm not mistaken.
Is the blade solid or hollow?

Best
Gene

P.S. good luck with the coins.

A.alnakkas · 18th January 2012, 06:12 PM

Hello,

This is a good later 20th century Jambiya as Gene said. The blade looks good I dont think its one of the 2 pieces ones.. but you never know :P

thinreadline · 18th January 2012, 06:26 PM

Thanks both of you .. I dont think the blade is made from 2 pieces . it seems pretty good to me.

TVV · 18th January 2012, 06:36 PM

Richmond,
I am away from my books but if I remember correctly, either Elgood or Gracie addressed the ducats topic and mentioned, that many of the more modern jambiyas have imitations of these earlier coins. You are doing the right thing by having them tested.
Regards,
Teodor

thinreadline · 18th January 2012, 07:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TVV

Richmond,
I am away from my books but if I remember correctly, either Elgood or Gracie addressed the ducats topic and mentioned, that many of the more modern jambiyas have imitations of these earlier coins. You are doing the right thing by having them tested.
Regards,
Teodor

Thanks Teodor ... I have Elgood so I will take a look
Richmond

kahnjar1 · 19th January 2012, 05:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TVV

Richmond,
I am away from my books but if I remember correctly, either Elgood or Gracie addressed the ducats topic and mentioned, that many of the more modern jambiyas have imitations of these earlier coins. You are doing the right thing by having them tested.
Regards,
Teodor

Teodor, you are right about mention of these brass replica "coins". Steve Gracie mentions them in his book about Yemeni Jambiya. If you have the book, check out page 193 in the chapter relating to Jambiya Hilts. These "coins" are NOT the real thing.
Stu

TVV · 19th January 2012, 07:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kahnjar1

Teodor, you are right about mention of these brass replica "coins". Steve Gracie mentions them in his book about Yemeni Jambiya. If you have the book, check out page 193 in the chapter relating to Jambiya Hilts. These "coins" are NOT the real thing.
Stu

I completely agree that the disks on the modern Assib jambiya in question are imitations out of brass. However, it is Richmond's right to confirm that with a jeweller and it would be the right thing to do - always better to know what you have, even if it is not what you hoped for.
Regards,
Teodor

kahnjar1 · 19th January 2012, 07:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TVV

I completely agree that the disks on the modern Assib jambiya in question are imitations out of brass. However, it is Richmond's right to confirm that with a jeweller and it would be the right thing to do - always better to know what you have, even if it is not what you hoped for.
Regards,
Teodor

I was not suggesting that those on Richmond's Jambiya were copies. Simply that the comment made by Steve in his book is that the modern "coins" are brass copies. Sorry for any misunderstanding.
Stu

thinreadline · 19th January 2012, 11:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kahnjar1

I was not suggesting that those on Richmond's Jambiya were copies. Simply that the comment made by Steve in his book is that the modern "coins" are brass copies. Sorry for any misunderstanding.
Stu

I will let you all know the result ... and appreciate your comments on this matter . I suspect they will turn out to be fakes .... as I said in my thread the practice of selling these copies appears to go back to the 19th century so my chances are slim... but if I dont check , I will always be wondering ....

18th January 2012, 12:17 PM	#1
thinreadline Member Join Date: Nov 2010 Location: Wirral Posts: 1,204	Jambiyah with Venetian ducats I recently bought this jambiyah at an arms fair along with a big lot of other knives . They all worked out very cheap and the seller would not split the lot. Jambiyahs are not my interest and so I was intending to sell it on at a bargain price .. but failed to do so and brought it home. It was only when I looked closely at the hilt rivets that I saw that they were coins rather than brass discs as I had originally believed . The coin depicted a figure surrounded by stars and a motto REGIS ISTE DUCA plus some unreadable stuff. A bit of research revealed this to be a Venetian gold ducat of the mid 18th C . You can imagine my excitement ... especially when I discovered that the coins were worth £250 each ! However I did think that that seemed improbable on such a low grade dagger. Further research led me to a character named Frederick William Hasluck (1878 – 1920) who was an English antiquarian, historian, and archaeologist . Amongst many items bequeathed by his wife to the British Museum was a collection of fake Venetian ducats which he had acquired in Alexandria in 1910 . I attach a picture of several examples of these from the British Museum collection ( some collected by others than Hasluck ). It seems that variants of these turned up in India, Arabia and the Levant, as well as Africa . It seems that imitations of these imitations were ( and may still be ) made in India , Egypt , Lebanon, and from the Yemen. Gradually the Christian symbolism of the original Venetian coins morphed into depictions of Hindu deities in the Indian made copies British and perhaps German or Austrian firms also mass-produced the crude Indian or Levantine jewelry imitations that were then exported to India, and also sold to African natives through the colonial trade . Well I suppose this is a long winded way of saying .. dont take things at face value and dont get too excited especially when you you are dabbling in areas you dont know anything about . But its been fun learning a bit more about all this. Nevertheless hope springs eternal in the human breast and so as a last ditch I am off to the jewellers to get them tested ! Attached Images

18th January 2012, 01:33 PM	#2
Atlantia Member Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: The Sharp end Posts: 2,928	Hi Richmond, It's a pretty standard later 20thC Jambiya. From Yemen if I'm not mistaken. Is the blade solid or hollow? Best Gene P.S. good luck with the coins.

18th January 2012, 06:12 PM	#3
A.alnakkas Member Join Date: Nov 2010 Location: Kuwait Posts: 1,340	Hello, This is a good later 20th century Jambiya as Gene said. The blade looks good I dont think its one of the 2 pieces ones.. but you never know :P

18th January 2012, 06:26 PM	#4
thinreadline Member Join Date: Nov 2010 Location: Wirral Posts: 1,204	Thanks both of you .. I dont think the blade is made from 2 pieces . it seems pretty good to me.

18th January 2012, 06:36 PM	#5
TVV Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Bay Area Posts: 1,625	Richmond, I am away from my books but if I remember correctly, either Elgood or Gracie addressed the ducats topic and mentioned, that many of the more modern jambiyas have imitations of these earlier coins. You are doing the right thing by having them tested. Regards, Teodor