Bali ceremonial knife

Gustav · 20th December 2012, 10:34 PM

Dear All,

finally it has found his new owner, and I think, it would be interesting to start a discussion about it:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/ANTIQUE-INDO...item19d74a7316

At first sight I thought it would be the real thing, but then... one thing for sure: it would be the first one of this kind I see without the "Banji" (swastika) ornament. And there are some other strange features.

Is this one an attempt to cheat or just a less fine or more recent example of its kind?

Gustav · 20th December 2012, 10:36 PM

Pics continued:

Gustav · 20th December 2012, 10:39 PM

And more:

Atlantia · 20th December 2012, 10:51 PM

Hi Gustav,

It's a nice knife, shall we call them 'Wedung'? I know some do and some don't.

Artzi had a similar one on his website some time ago:
http://www.oriental-arms.com/photos.php?id=1812

Atlantia · 20th December 2012, 10:55 PM

I have two 'cousins'.
Sadly neither comes with the oversized ceremonial scabbard, the "party dress".
One of mine is 'naked' and the other only has it's 'everday' scabbard.
Both of mine have the 'swastika' geometry.

Sajen · 20th December 2012, 11:22 PM

Hello Gustav,

have found this thread: http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ght=bali+knife

The one from Artzi was discussed here: http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ght=bali+knife

The one you have posted look original to my eyes and like the both threads show they don't need to have the swastika ornament. But honestly I have state that I don't know to much about them.

Attached a picture from the first thread.

Regards,

Detlef

Atlantia · 20th December 2012, 11:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sajen

Hello Gustav,

have found this thread: http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ght=bali+knife

The one from Artzi was discussed here: http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ght=bali+knife

The one you have posted look original to my eyes and like the both threads show they don't need to have the swastika ornament. But honestly I have state that I don't know to much about them.

Attached a picture from the first thread.

Regards,

Detlef

Hi Detlef,

That's interesting.
The example you found has not got the 'monster' on the spine.
Remember my two cousins?

Sajen · 20th December 2012, 11:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Atlantia

Hi Detlef,

That's interesting.
The example you found has not got the 'monster' on the spine.
Remember my two cousins?

Hi buddy,

yes remember your both knifes. Both have the swastika ornament. The one from Charles have maybe lost the "monster" on it's spine or never have had it, I don't know. But on page 74 from the book "Traditional Weapons Of The Indonesian Archipelago" is shown an example which also don't have this "monster" nor the swastika ornament.

Regards,

Detlef

Gustav · 21st December 2012, 12:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sajen

But on page 74 from the book "Traditional Weapons Of The Indonesian Archipelago" is shown an example which also don't have this "monster" nor the swastika ornament.

Gene, Detlef, thank you very much for the interesting insights!

Detlef, in van Zonnevelds book depicted is the other side of the knife, which don't have ornaments. Yet you are wright about the "monster".

Sajen · 21st December 2012, 12:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gustav

Gene, Detlef, thank you very much for the interesting insights!

Detlef, in van Zonnevelds book depicted is the other side of the knife, which don't have ornaments. Yet you are wright about the "monster".

Hello Gustav,

yes, you are right, in Alberts book is shown the other side. But don't think that Albert will show this side when the other will be fancy.

Maybe Albert will help by this question.

Gustav · 21st December 2012, 06:33 AM

Detlef, I think, you are wright. The knife in van Zonnevelds book don't have ornaments on blade, Schmeltz also describes a plain blade with grooves on both sides. So perhaps we can see some logic here, regarding this and picture in #4:

No "monster" head = no further ornaments on the blade.

Battara · 21st December 2012, 05:14 PM

Ceremonially what were these used for?

CharlesS · 21st December 2012, 05:34 PM

Battara, apparently these are associated with funerary rites.

Atlantia · 21st December 2012, 06:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CharlesS

Battara, apparently these are associated with funerary rites.

Absolutely! My own trade, which is why I rather like them.
There's a great thread somewhere with tons of pictures.......

Here we go:
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=13443

Atlantia · 21st December 2012, 07:19 PM

Hi Guys
If you do a little digging into the archives there are some great threads on these rare and interesting knives.
http://www.vikingsword.com/ubb/Forum1/HTML/000732.html

Albert · 21st December 2012, 09:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sajen

Hello Gustav,

yes, you are right, in Alberts book is shown the other side. But don't think that Albert will show this side when the other will be fancy.

Maybe Albert will help by this question.

That is correct, if the other side of the blade had been more fancy, I would have shown that one. Both sides of the blade are exactly the same.
Albert

Sajen · 21st December 2012, 10:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Albert

That is correct, if the other side of the blade had been more fancy, I would have shown that one. Both sides of the blade are exactly the same.
Albert

Thank you very much for clarification!

Regards,

Detlef

Atlantia · 21st December 2012, 10:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sajen

Hi buddy,

yes remember your both knifes. Both have the swastika ornament. The one from Charles have maybe lost the "monster" on it's spine or never have had it, I don't know. But on page 74 from the book "Traditional Weapons Of The Indonesian Archipelago" is shown an example which also don't have this "monster" nor the swastika ornament.

Regards,

Detlef

Hi Detlef

I think these are really interesting. Is there a work that defines the various types and region specific variations?

ATB
Gene

Sajen · 21st December 2012, 10:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Atlantia

Hi Detlef

I think these are really interesting. Is there a work that defines the various types and region specific variations?

ATB
Gene

Hi Gene,

not that I am aware of. But one thing is to remark: To my knowledge have the Java wedung nothing to do with the Bali tiuk pengentas.
But like I have written before, my knowledge about both knifes is very limited.

Regards,

Detlef

Gustav · 22nd December 2012, 12:11 AM

I suppose - more ornamentation - more magic content. I don't think, they all are equal. We have so far: plain blades (without the "head" embellishment), blades with ornamentation (with "head"), blades with ornamentation including "Banji", which is magically a VERY important ornament (with "head").

I know, it all sounds childish. It would be interesting to hear some thoughts of a Balinese, who would share his knowledge.

Sajen · 22nd December 2012, 12:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gustav

It would be interesting to hear some thoughts of a Balinese, who would share his knowledge.

Hello Gustav,

will try to ask a Balinese I know if he can tell us more.

Regards,

Detlef

Battara · 22nd December 2012, 04:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Atlantia

Absolutely! My own trade, which is why I rather like them.
There's a great thread somewhere with tons of pictures.......

Here we go:
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=13443

Well I feel like an idiot now!

I clean forgot about this thread (and I posted in it!

).

Thanks.......

Atlantia · 22nd December 2012, 05:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Battara

Well I feel like an idiot now!

I clean forgot about this thread (and I posted in it!

).

Thanks.......

ROTF!!!
I do it all the time, don't worry at all mate.

Atlantia · 22nd December 2012, 05:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sajen

Hi Gene,

not that I am aware of. But one thing is to remark: To my knowledge have the Java wedung nothing to do with the Bali tiuk pengentas.
But like I have written before, my knowledge about both knifes is very limited.

Regards,

Detlef

Hi Detlef,

That's an interesting point. The other day I noticed this reply from Amuk in an old thread about my pair:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Amuk Murugul

Hullo again Gene,

FWIW ..... I refer to mine as Balinese Blakas.

Best,

I did mean to ask him but..... my old brain... forgets things.....

Are you saying the these are not 'Wedung'? but 'tiuk pengenta'?
It's not a term I've heard before

Can you elaborate please?

Thanks buddy
Gene

Sajen · 22nd December 2012, 05:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Atlantia

Hi Detlef,

That's an interesting point. The other day I noticed this reply from Amuk in an old thread about my pair:

I did mean to ask him but..... my old brain... forgets things.....

Are you saying the these are not 'Wedung'? but 'tiuk pengenta'?
It's not a term I've heard before

Can you elaborate please?

Thanks buddy
Gene

Hi Gene,

look post # 16 of this thread: http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=13443, a name I have heard on Bali as well.

Regards,

Detlef

Atlantia · 22nd December 2012, 07:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sajen

Hi Gene,

look post # 16 of this thread: http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=13443, a name I have heard on Bali as well.

Regards,

Detlef

Hi Detlef,

Thanks, that clears it up nicely.
So tiuk pengentas it is!

VVV · 22nd December 2012, 08:38 PM

I have noticed that the old ones usually don't have the swastika pattern, so maybe it's the other way around?
Here are two blurry cell phone pictures I shot when visiting the Klungkung palace museum. There seems to be a difference between the ceremonial axe and this "household knife", both in use and name.

Michael

PS I have one and used to have an additional that I traded. One is plain and the other have an ornamented blade. Both of them have this kind of scabbard, old style makara hilt, the "monster" protrusion and inlay on the back of the blade.
I suspect that the makara hilt, more than if there is inlay on the blade, is an age indicator.

Battara · 23rd December 2012, 03:10 AM

Ok, so this one I have was also used for funeral services as well?

I know it is ceremonial and like the one in your pictures above. Also there is heavily silver koftgari on both sides.

Sajen · 23rd December 2012, 01:29 PM

Hello all,

here the answer I just received from Bali:

Dear Detlef,
Thank you for your email and the link, of course I still remember you. I try to give a small information about "tiuk pengentas", in Bali we use tiuk pengentas as one of a must thing for cremation ceremony, to open the wrap of the body we use tiuk pengentas which symbolize to open another word for the soul,and hope that the soul will get a good way. after we bring the body to cemetery, we also use tiuk pengentas to open the tie of the buffalo statue, there is a hole inside the buffalo to put the body and burning the body inside.
I hope my little explanation can give you a little information.
kindly regards,
Ketut Karang

I have asked him further questions and will post his answer here when I have received it.
Regards,

Detlef

Sajen · 23rd December 2012, 01:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Battara

Ok, so this one I have was also used for funeral services as well?

I know it is ceremonial and like the one in your pictures above. Also there is heavily silver koftgari on both sides.

Hello Jose,

yes, I think so.

20th December 2012, 10:34 PM	#1
Gustav Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 1,249	Bali ceremonial knife Dear All, finally it has found his new owner, and I think, it would be interesting to start a discussion about it: http://www.ebay.com/itm/ANTIQUE-INDO...item19d74a7316 At first sight I thought it would be the real thing, but then... one thing for sure: it would be the first one of this kind I see without the "Banji" (swastika) ornament. And there are some other strange features. Is this one an attempt to cheat or just a less fine or more recent example of its kind? Attached Images

20th December 2012, 10:36 PM	#2
Gustav Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 1,249	Pics continued: Attached Images

20th December 2012, 10:39 PM	#3
Gustav Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 1,249	And more: Attached Images

20th December 2012, 11:22 PM	#6
Sajen Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Germany, Dortmund Posts: 8,794	Hello Gustav, have found this thread: http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ght=bali+knife The one from Artzi was discussed here: http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ght=bali+knife The one you have posted look original to my eyes and like the both threads show they don't need to have the swastika ornament. But honestly I have state that I don't know to much about them. Attached a picture from the first thread. Regards, Detlef Attached Images

22nd December 2012, 08:38 PM	#27
VVV Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Sweden Posts: 1,637	I have noticed that the old ones usually don't have the swastika pattern, so maybe it's the other way around? Here are two blurry cell phone pictures I shot when visiting the Klungkung palace museum. There seems to be a difference between the ceremonial axe and this "household knife", both in use and name. Michael PS I have one and used to have an additional that I traded. One is plain and the other have an ornamented blade. Both of them have this kind of scabbard, old style makara hilt, the "monster" protrusion and inlay on the back of the blade. I suspect that the makara hilt, more than if there is inlay on the blade, is an age indicator. Attached Images Last edited by VVV; 22nd December 2012 at 08:49 PM. Reason: added PS

20th December 2012, 10:51 PM	#4
Atlantia Member Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: The Sharp end Posts: 2,928	Hi Gustav, It's a nice knife, shall we call them 'Wedung'? I know some do and some don't. Artzi had a similar one on his website some time ago: http://www.oriental-arms.com/photos.php?id=1812 Attached Images

20th December 2012, 10:55 PM	#5
Atlantia Member Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: The Sharp end Posts: 2,928	I have two 'cousins'. Sadly neither comes with the oversized ceremonial scabbard, the "party dress". One of mine is 'naked' and the other only has it's 'everday' scabbard. Both of mine have the 'swastika' geometry.

21st December 2012, 06:33 AM	#11
Gustav Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 1,249	Detlef, I think, you are wright. The knife in van Zonnevelds book don't have ornaments on blade, Schmeltz also describes a plain blade with grooves on both sides. So perhaps we can see some logic here, regarding this and picture in #4: No "monster" head = no further ornaments on the blade.

21st December 2012, 05:14 PM	#12
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,229	Ceremonially what were these used for?

21st December 2012, 05:34 PM	#13
CharlesS Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Greenville, NC Posts: 1,857	Battara, apparently these are associated with funerary rites.

21st December 2012, 07:19 PM	#15
Atlantia Member Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: The Sharp end Posts: 2,928	Hi Guys If you do a little digging into the archives there are some great threads on these rare and interesting knives. http://www.vikingsword.com/ubb/Forum1/HTML/000732.html

22nd December 2012, 12:11 AM	#20
Gustav Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 1,249	I suppose - more ornamentation - more magic content. I don't think, they all are equal. We have so far: plain blades (without the "head" embellishment), blades with ornamentation (with "head"), blades with ornamentation including "Banji", which is magically a VERY important ornament (with "head"). I know, it all sounds childish. It would be interesting to hear some thoughts of a Balinese, who would share his knowledge.

23rd December 2012, 03:10 AM	#28
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,229	Ok, so this one I have was also used for funeral services as well? I know it is ceremonial and like the one in your pictures above. Also there is heavily silver koftgari on both sides. Attached Images

23rd December 2012, 01:29 PM	#29
Sajen Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Germany, Dortmund Posts: 8,794	Hello all, here the answer I just received from Bali: Dear Detlef, Thank you for your email and the link, of course I still remember you. I try to give a small information about "tiuk pengentas", in Bali we use tiuk pengentas as one of a must thing for cremation ceremony, to open the wrap of the body we use tiuk pengentas which symbolize to open another word for the soul,and hope that the soul will get a good way. after we bring the body to cemetery, we also use tiuk pengentas to open the tie of the buffalo statue, there is a hole inside the buffalo to put the body and burning the body inside. I hope my little explanation can give you a little information. kindly regards, Ketut Karang I have asked him further questions and will post his answer here when I have received it. Regards, Detlef Last edited by Sajen; 23rd December 2012 at 01:58 PM.