Arabic STAMP on tulwar blade

stephen wood · 23rd March 2009, 09:51 PM

...it is actually a stamp - identical on both sides of the blade. Is it at all possible that the stamp was made by someone unfamiliar with written forms of Arabic? Copied imperfectly from another source (sometimes the case with coinage and carpets...)?

The blade is, I think, European and as you can see, was once set in a different hilt with blade supports.

Dom · 23rd March 2009, 11:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by stephen wood

[SIZE=4][FONT=Book Antiqua]...it is actually a stamp - identical on both sides of the blade.

two lines
on the first reading from right to left, as it's must be done

two words; Allah - Mohamed

second line; nothing to read, just waves

that's set folks

à +

Dom

stephen wood · 24th March 2009, 04:29 AM

... the wavy lines couldn't be a date could they? 1333 AH (1915 Gregorian approx.) ?

kronckew · 24th March 2009, 09:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by stephen wood

... the wavy lines couldn't be a date could they? 1333 AH (1915 Gregorian approx.) ?

arabic numbers are written left to right so it would read 3331

arabic text is written right to left.

made it difficult to come up with an arabic word processer

of course if the stamper was illiterate in arabic...

a chart:

note the devanagari. edited: they write no's from left to right...

Dmitry · 21st November 2011, 05:32 PM

My feeling is that this blade is European, probably made in Solingen in the 1700s.

Stan S. · 21st November 2011, 05:53 PM

I could be wrong but here is an idea... With supposed decline of Indian steel quality in the 19th century, many bladesmiths tried to add value to their product by adding Arabic inscriptions to their merchandise to replicate Persian and Ottoman blades, which were thought to be superior at that time. Unfortunately vast majority of these people were illiterate, and resorted to crudely copying inscriptions from existing blades. In my opinion, inscription of "Allah - Mohammed" may simply represent the only 2 words besides his own name that the blade maker actually knew how to spell and recognized them from an inscription seen on another blade. This would also explain the squiggly lines - they may be just a filler that to an untrained eye would also look like text. So, I agree with the original poster's assessment.

By the way, the blade seems to be of good quality, and the sword overall is quite nice. Too bad it's missing a pommel but this sure gives it a certain character.

Dom · 21st November 2011, 06:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by stephen wood

... the wavy lines couldn't be a date could they? 1333 AH (1915 Gregorian approx.) ?

why not

à +

Dom

stephen wood · 21st November 2011, 11:30 PM

AJ1356 · 22nd November 2011, 01:24 PM

Now let's get real and solve this. No where on this blad it says Allah(الله), the only part that is inteligible is Mohammad (محمد ). Top line we have لم لا that with Mohammad after it does not really make much sense, but could be له لا. Right up untill the Brits took over India, India was ruled by mostly Muslim rulers, the Mughuls, the Persian Afshars and the Afghans, and Farsi/Dari was the language of the courts. So there is good chance of finding Arabic script on Indian blades. The chances of the blacksmith being illeterate or not knowing enough about proper writing is very high. If i'm to take a guess, the text closely resembles someone trying to write,
لا اله الا الله محمد رسول الله .

stephen wood · 22nd November 2011, 02:31 PM

...what does that last line mean?

It is a very light and flexible blade, and, I agree, probably European - most interesting for me is the fact that the mark is made with a stamp - that is, a die made to quickly produce an identical mark on a number of blades. It is placed for visibility (in contrast, Solingen-produced kaskara blades are often marked just above or on the tang). One characteristic of stamps is their tendency towards illegibility, and this might be the case here.

Also of note is the koftgari hilt (it was previously mounted with another hilt with a blade support which we are used to seeing in firanghis). The inlay has worn away in such a way as to show that the index finger was hooked over the guard.

Thank you all for your comments.

Dom · 22nd November 2011, 02:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by stephen wood

...what does that last line mean?.

it's the "Shahada"
لا إله إلا الله محمد رسول الله (lā ʾilāha ʾillallāh, Muḥammad rasūlu-llāh) (in Arabic)
There is no god but God, and Muhammad is the messenger of God. (in English)
declaration of Islamic faith

à +

Dom

stephen wood · 22nd November 2011, 03:01 PM

... thanks Dom

Dmitry · 22nd November 2011, 05:34 PM

Do these marks look akin to the blade above?

stephen wood · 22nd November 2011, 05:42 PM

Tell me more! Let's see the whole blade...

Dmitry · 22nd November 2011, 06:12 PM

Pictures are too big to upload here, so here're the links -
http://antiquearmsforum.com/forum/do...=203&mode=view
http://antiquearmsforum.com/forum/do...=204&mode=view
http://antiquearmsforum.com/forum/do...=205&mode=view

stephen wood · 22nd November 2011, 06:19 PM

...thank you very much.

Where is it from? Eastern Europe perhaps? Is the writing Georgian?

Dmitry · 22nd November 2011, 07:53 PM

I don't know what the writing means. Until I saw your sword, I thought it was a type of talismanic script.

Atlantia · 22nd November 2011, 08:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dmitry

Pictures are too big to upload here, so here're the links -
http://antiquearmsforum.com/forum/do...=203&mode=view
http://antiquearmsforum.com/forum/do...=204&mode=view
http://antiquearmsforum.com/forum/do...=205&mode=view

Here you go.

Stan S. · 22nd November 2011, 08:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by stephen wood

Also of note is the koftgari hilt (it was previously mounted with another hilt with a blade support which we are used to seeing in firanghis). The inlay has worn away in such a way as to show that the index finger was hooked over the guard.

Can we get a close up of the hilt? I would love to see a pattern of coftgari wear indicating the finger over guard hold that you are referring to. Thanks in advance.

Jens Nordlunde · 22nd November 2011, 10:50 PM

Dmitry and others, please notice that inscriptions on blades are read from the back of the blade and not from the sharp side of the blade.
Jens

Dmitry · 23rd November 2011, 03:25 AM

Here's the right side.

The stars in constellation with the moon are attributed by Bezdek to the Schimmelbusch family of bladesmiths. I'm sure there were others with similar marks.
Ever since buying this sword I assumed the characters on the other side of the blade were just talismanic characters, but if it's a real language, I'd love to be proven wrong.

Dom · 23rd November 2011, 02:36 PM

matter ... to burn out our brains

à +

Dom

Dmitry · 23rd November 2011, 03:12 PM

Dom, thank you very much! I wonder what these inscriptions signify on these blades. I still believe that both blades are of European manufacture, probably from Solingen. Both made for export/import? One ended up in India, the other one was mounted on a hussar-style hilt..

Jim McDougall · 24th November 2011, 08:10 AM

These are Solingen blades, but markings apparantly added in the markets where they were received. The crescent moon and stars groupings are typically in the blade center location (very much like some blades out of Solingen about mid to third quarter 19th c.) but occur on blades in Zanzibar and Yemen in different configurations. In looking at the Schimmelbusch& Kirschbaum marking in Bezdek (p.152) the image is of a shooting star in a group of stars, not crescent moon, however as usual there were likely variations.

Ibrahiim al Balooshi · 25th November 2011, 07:15 AM

Salaams all~ See Kattara for comments TVV THREAD #28 AND #81. Moons and Stars.

Please also note my new Omani Sword Terminology at # 155 on the same thread.

The straight is a Sayf and the Curved is a Kattara.

Regards Ibrahiim.

23rd March 2009, 09:51 PM	#1
stephen wood Member Join Date: Jun 2008 Posts: 227	Arabic STAMP on tulwar blade ...it is actually a stamp - identical on both sides of the blade. Is it at all possible that the stamp was made by someone unfamiliar with written forms of Arabic? Copied imperfectly from another source (sometimes the case with coinage and carpets...)? The blade is, I think, European and as you can see, was once set in a different hilt with blade supports. Attached Images

22nd November 2011, 05:34 PM	#13
Dmitry Member Join Date: Jul 2009 Posts: 607	Do these marks look akin to the blade above? Attached Images

23rd November 2011, 03:25 AM	#21
Dmitry Member Join Date: Jul 2009 Posts: 607	Here's the right side. The stars in constellation with the moon are attributed by Bezdek to the Schimmelbusch family of bladesmiths. I'm sure there were others with similar marks. Ever since buying this sword I assumed the characters on the other side of the blade were just talismanic characters, but if it's a real language, I'd love to be proven wrong. Attached Images

23rd November 2011, 02:36 PM	#22
Dom Member Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: Paris (FR*) Cairo (EG) Posts: 1,142	matter ... to burn out our brains à + Dom Attached Images

24th March 2009, 04:29 AM	#3
stephen wood Member Join Date: Jun 2008 Posts: 227	... the wavy lines couldn't be a date could they? 1333 AH (1915 Gregorian approx.) ?

21st November 2011, 05:32 PM	#5
Dmitry Member Join Date: Jul 2009 Posts: 607	My feeling is that this blade is European, probably made in Solingen in the 1700s.

21st November 2011, 05:53 PM	#6
Stan S. Member Join Date: Nov 2011 Location: Brooklyn, NY USA Posts: 227	I could be wrong but here is an idea... With supposed decline of Indian steel quality in the 19th century, many bladesmiths tried to add value to their product by adding Arabic inscriptions to their merchandise to replicate Persian and Ottoman blades, which were thought to be superior at that time. Unfortunately vast majority of these people were illiterate, and resorted to crudely copying inscriptions from existing blades. In my opinion, inscription of "Allah - Mohammed" may simply represent the only 2 words besides his own name that the blade maker actually knew how to spell and recognized them from an inscription seen on another blade. This would also explain the squiggly lines - they may be just a filler that to an untrained eye would also look like text. So, I agree with the original poster's assessment. By the way, the blade seems to be of good quality, and the sword overall is quite nice. Too bad it's missing a pommel but this sure gives it a certain character.

21st November 2011, 11:30 PM	#8
stephen wood Member Join Date: Jun 2008 Posts: 227

22nd November 2011, 01:24 PM	#9
AJ1356 Member Join Date: Jul 2011 Location: Nashville Posts: 314	Now let's get real and solve this. No where on this blad it says Allah(الله), the only part that is inteligible is Mohammad (محمد ). Top line we have لم لا that with Mohammad after it does not really make much sense, but could be له لا. Right up untill the Brits took over India, India was ruled by mostly Muslim rulers, the Mughuls, the Persian Afshars and the Afghans, and Farsi/Dari was the language of the courts. So there is good chance of finding Arabic script on Indian blades. The chances of the blacksmith being illeterate or not knowing enough about proper writing is very high. If i'm to take a guess, the text closely resembles someone trying to write, لا اله الا الله محمد رسول الله .

22nd November 2011, 02:31 PM	#10
stephen wood Member Join Date: Jun 2008 Posts: 227	...what does that last line mean? It is a very light and flexible blade, and, I agree, probably European - most interesting for me is the fact that the mark is made with a stamp - that is, a die made to quickly produce an identical mark on a number of blades. It is placed for visibility (in contrast, Solingen-produced kaskara blades are often marked just above or on the tang). One characteristic of stamps is their tendency towards illegibility, and this might be the case here. Also of note is the koftgari hilt (it was previously mounted with another hilt with a blade support which we are used to seeing in firanghis). The inlay has worn away in such a way as to show that the index finger was hooked over the guard. Thank you all for your comments.

22nd November 2011, 03:01 PM	#12
stephen wood Member Join Date: Jun 2008 Posts: 227	... thanks Dom

22nd November 2011, 05:42 PM	#14
stephen wood Member Join Date: Jun 2008 Posts: 227	Tell me more! Let's see the whole blade...

22nd November 2011, 06:12 PM	#15
Dmitry Member Join Date: Jul 2009 Posts: 607	Pictures are too big to upload here, so here're the links - http://antiquearmsforum.com/forum/do...=203&mode=view http://antiquearmsforum.com/forum/do...=204&mode=view http://antiquearmsforum.com/forum/do...=205&mode=view

22nd November 2011, 06:19 PM	#16
stephen wood Member Join Date: Jun 2008 Posts: 227	...thank you very much. Where is it from? Eastern Europe perhaps? Is the writing Georgian?

22nd November 2011, 07:53 PM	#17
Dmitry Member Join Date: Jul 2009 Posts: 607	I don't know what the writing means. Until I saw your sword, I thought it was a type of talismanic script.

22nd November 2011, 10:50 PM	#20
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	Dmitry and others, please notice that inscriptions on blades are read from the back of the blade and not from the sharp side of the blade. Jens

23rd November 2011, 03:12 PM	#23
Dmitry Member Join Date: Jul 2009 Posts: 607	Dom, thank you very much! I wonder what these inscriptions signify on these blades. I still believe that both blades are of European manufacture, probably from Solingen. Both made for export/import? One ended up in India, the other one was mounted on a hussar-style hilt..

24th November 2011, 08:10 AM	#24
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,945	These are Solingen blades, but markings apparantly added in the markets where they were received. The crescent moon and stars groupings are typically in the blade center location (very much like some blades out of Solingen about mid to third quarter 19th c.) but occur on blades in Zanzibar and Yemen in different configurations. In looking at the Schimmelbusch& Kirschbaum marking in Bezdek (p.152) the image is of a shooting star in a group of stars, not crescent moon, however as usual there were likely variations.

25th November 2011, 07:15 AM	#25
Ibrahiim al Balooshi Member Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Buraimi Oman, on the border with the UAE Posts: 4,408	Salaams all~ See Kattara for comments TVV THREAD #28 AND #81. Moons and Stars. Please also note my new Omani Sword Terminology at # 155 on the same thread. The straight is a Sayf and the Curved is a Kattara. Regards Ibrahiim.