Blood and hilts

celtan · 28th September 2008, 05:06 AM

I was wondering if there's any relationship between exposure to blood and rapid deterioration of hilts.

I own a sword which was removed from the hand of a dead spanish soldier on Philippines, its wood hilt being almost completely gone. I also understand that swords removed from graves usually show severe corrosion in the areas where their masters hands held them.

There's a japanese blade that I recently acquired which has the nasty "habit" of cutting me, this if I'm not _exceptionally_ careful while handling same. Mind you, nothing serious, just very shallow cuts, just as if it was "reminding" me of its true nature.

I'm not superstitious, but the blade has definitely something strange about it, not really a bad feeling, just ...strange. I'm not exactly at ease with it out of the scabbard.

...and its missing its hilt and grips!

Jim McDougall · 28th September 2008, 07:42 AM

What an absolutely intriguing topic, and it seems on the Ethnographic Forum there was somewhat recently a thread concerning the effects of blood on blades corrosively. I dont recall offhand the responses, but will look forward to what the opinions are on this.
While rationally I think we all regard weapons pretty much objectively, but one cannot discount the sensations experienced when holding an object of life and death in historic times and events. Even weapons of ceremonial or parade purpose typically carry intense traditional presence.I think it is much the same as visiting a battlefield, superstitious or not, it sets the mind to wondering.

All best regards,
Jim

kahnjar1 · 28th September 2008, 08:35 AM

I can not comment directly on the effects of blood on metal, but can tell you that the rule generally when handling weapons, especially the metal parts, is to wear gloves, to avoid transfering the acid from fingers to the metal, and staining it.

Ed · 28th September 2008, 01:55 PM

Oakeschott wrote about his first sword (I think) which he had examined by a professional. They found a dark crusted substance in the guts of the thing that he thought might have been old blood. With earlier forms of combat I can imagine a person getting a variety of wounds that would not necessarily force him out of the fray and which could cause blood to be introduced to the innards of his sword. Also if he actually stabbed someone.

celtan · 28th September 2008, 04:22 PM

Yep, I always use latex gloves. OTOH, grips are made to be "touched", so the frequent need to replace hilts from old family blades...

I own a 1680 swedish sword which had its grip replaced, and a 16-17th dagger which may have had its pommel and grip replaced, probably for the very same reason...

Best

M

Quote:

Originally Posted by kahnjar1

I can not comment directly on the effects of blood on metal, but can tell you that the rule generally when handling weapons, especially the metal parts, is to wear gloves, to avoid transfering the acid from fingers to the metal, and staining it.

Jim McDougall · 28th September 2008, 08:52 PM

Since we are talking about the 'deterioration' of the grips, if I understand correctly, and not necessarily metal hilt structure, it would seem that the situation would be considerably qualified by the grip material, age, and conditions to which it has been exposed.

I have seen kampilan's from the Philippines that typically have a cloth tied around the hilt, presumably to wipe the grips as required. The very nature of hilts and the grips is to maintain steady hold and avoid slippage from the effects to be expected in battle, whether sweat or blood exposure or both.

I would think that metal grips would experience the same effects as the blade with exposure to acidic body fluids, while wood, horn and ivory being more highly porous would naturally be more affected. I cannot really say much on the forensic effects on grip materials if left unattended, but imagine over time would enhance deterioration, especially in exposure to the elements.

I have seen 17th century grips on a walloon type cavalry sword, which were wood, the wire wrap long gone, but turks heads still loosely attached. It was of course wood, and fully intact, though almost sponge like with worm holes. It would seem the sword had been static for a very long time, and clearly not handled, but also clearly in a place not exposed to the elements, probably stored away. I suppose that would best illustrate the properties of 'normal' decomposition of a wood hilt.
The question would be, what if blood had existed on the hilt.

In an interesting discussion on how long blood stains would remain on weapons' blades on our other forum, I noted a New York Times article ("Stains on Prehistoric Tool are Human Blood", John Noble Wilford) where a 100,000 year old stone cutting tool found in the 1970's at a site known as Barda Balka in Iraq, had stains that testing revealed were human blood stains, possibly Neanderthal.

Obviously stone is not a grip or hilt component technically (OK I know in India etc. there are Jade hilts and so on) but clearly blood has little effect on it over time as a corrosive material.

Now that I have presented all this forensic 'evidence' , it still doesnt answer the question properly, but I have to ask Celtan one thing.......that Japanese blade isn't signed 'Muramasa' is it?

All best regards,
Jim

celtan · 28th September 2008, 09:36 PM

Hey, that's interesting! I did a search on Muramasa, and (besides it being Wolverine's Sword : ) I found about the legend.

BTW: I'lm truly. a lil'bit scared of the d. thing. I showed it yesrerday to a friend, and nothing happened, but I was afraid it would slip and pierce my foot or something. I actually told my frind no to step in too close.

I used to practice Kendo, and had heard about the competition between the Masamune and the Muramasa swords (didn't know their names, though) but the version I received was that the Masamune? was superior because its very nature caused the absence of conflict.

The info I obtained on my blade is that it's a Gendaito made after 1926, and that the armourer's name was KANEZANE. I just purchased a Hilt set in England, and hope to eventually find a suitable habaki, which it's also missing.

But the blade is in dire condition, and there's no way the cost justifies sending it to be polished "a la niponese".

Best

M

28th September 2008, 05:06 AM	#1
celtan Member Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: PR, USA Posts: 679	Blood and hilts I was wondering if there's any relationship between exposure to blood and rapid deterioration of hilts. I own a sword which was removed from the hand of a dead spanish soldier on Philippines, its wood hilt being almost completely gone. I also understand that swords removed from graves usually show severe corrosion in the areas where their masters hands held them. There's a japanese blade that I recently acquired which has the nasty "habit" of cutting me, this if I'm not _exceptionally_ careful while handling same. Mind you, nothing serious, just very shallow cuts, just as if it was "reminding" me of its true nature. I'm not superstitious, but the blade has definitely something strange about it, not really a bad feeling, just ...strange. I'm not exactly at ease with it out of the scabbard. ...and its missing its hilt and grips!

28th September 2008, 07:42 AM	#2
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,950	What an absolutely intriguing topic, and it seems on the Ethnographic Forum there was somewhat recently a thread concerning the effects of blood on blades corrosively. I dont recall offhand the responses, but will look forward to what the opinions are on this. While rationally I think we all regard weapons pretty much objectively, but one cannot discount the sensations experienced when holding an object of life and death in historic times and events. Even weapons of ceremonial or parade purpose typically carry intense traditional presence.I think it is much the same as visiting a battlefield, superstitious or not, it sets the mind to wondering. All best regards, Jim

28th September 2008, 08:35 AM	#3
kahnjar1 Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: CHRISTCHURCH NEW ZEALAND Posts: 2,741	I can not comment directly on the effects of blood on metal, but can tell you that the rule generally when handling weapons, especially the metal parts, is to wear gloves, to avoid transfering the acid from fingers to the metal, and staining it.

28th September 2008, 01:55 PM	#4
Ed Member Join Date: Feb 2005 Posts: 237	Oakeschott wrote about his first sword (I think) which he had examined by a professional. They found a dark crusted substance in the guts of the thing that he thought might have been old blood. With earlier forms of combat I can imagine a person getting a variety of wounds that would not necessarily force him out of the fray and which could cause blood to be introduced to the innards of his sword. Also if he actually stabbed someone.

28th September 2008, 08:52 PM	#6
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,950	Since we are talking about the 'deterioration' of the grips, if I understand correctly, and not necessarily metal hilt structure, it would seem that the situation would be considerably qualified by the grip material, age, and conditions to which it has been exposed. I have seen kampilan's from the Philippines that typically have a cloth tied around the hilt, presumably to wipe the grips as required. The very nature of hilts and the grips is to maintain steady hold and avoid slippage from the effects to be expected in battle, whether sweat or blood exposure or both. I would think that metal grips would experience the same effects as the blade with exposure to acidic body fluids, while wood, horn and ivory being more highly porous would naturally be more affected. I cannot really say much on the forensic effects on grip materials if left unattended, but imagine over time would enhance deterioration, especially in exposure to the elements. I have seen 17th century grips on a walloon type cavalry sword, which were wood, the wire wrap long gone, but turks heads still loosely attached. It was of course wood, and fully intact, though almost sponge like with worm holes. It would seem the sword had been static for a very long time, and clearly not handled, but also clearly in a place not exposed to the elements, probably stored away. I suppose that would best illustrate the properties of 'normal' decomposition of a wood hilt. The question would be, what if blood had existed on the hilt. In an interesting discussion on how long blood stains would remain on weapons' blades on our other forum, I noted a New York Times article ("Stains on Prehistoric Tool are Human Blood", John Noble Wilford) where a 100,000 year old stone cutting tool found in the 1970's at a site known as Barda Balka in Iraq, had stains that testing revealed were human blood stains, possibly Neanderthal. Obviously stone is not a grip or hilt component technically (OK I know in India etc. there are Jade hilts and so on) but clearly blood has little effect on it over time as a corrosive material. Now that I have presented all this forensic 'evidence' , it still doesnt answer the question properly, but I have to ask Celtan one thing.......that Japanese blade isn't signed 'Muramasa' is it? All best regards, Jim

28th September 2008, 09:36 PM	#7
celtan Member Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: PR, USA Posts: 679	Hey, that's interesting! I did a search on Muramasa, and (besides it being Wolverine's Sword : ) I found about the legend. BTW: I'lm truly. a lil'bit scared of the d. thing. I showed it yesrerday to a friend, and nothing happened, but I was afraid it would slip and pierce my foot or something. I actually told my frind no to step in too close. I used to practice Kendo, and had heard about the competition between the Masamune and the Muramasa swords (didn't know their names, though) but the version I received was that the Masamune? was superior because its very nature caused the absence of conflict. The info I obtained on my blade is that it's a Gendaito made after 1926, and that the armourer's name was KANEZANE. I just purchased a Hilt set in England, and hope to eventually find a suitable habaki, which it's also missing. But the blade is in dire condition, and there's no way the cost justifies sending it to be polished "a la niponese". Best M