Yemeni Sayfs? Omani Kattaras?

[SwedeGreen]

Friends:

I'd like some help in identifying these four swords. They were purchased in Yemen and brought to the US in the 1960's. I'd like to learn, as best I can:

Where they originated?
What period / date they would have been made?
Rough value?
I realize that these may not be answerable by viewing a few photos but I'll start here.

Respectfully Requested
Johnny

[A.alnakkas]

hey, welcome to the forum.

As per forum rules, we cannot do values here BUT these are interesting swords, some suggest them to be Omani while others suggest them to be Yemeni. Judging from the mounts I guess they are Omani :-)

[Emanuel]

Hi Johnny, welcome to this forum as well.

I'm glad you joined and posted. I look forward to a resolution on this.

Regards,
Emanuel

[Jim McDougall]

Welcome Johnny, and these four swords are Omani kattara, and from what we have learned from Ibrahiim, who has done extensive research on these, they are primarily ceremonial swords used in Omani traditional performances. They are of course modern, and as mentioned we do not openly appraise or discuss values, but you may of course contact us privately for such matters.
I believe the blades for these are produced in Oman, and has been noted by Lofty the mounts are distinctly Omani, but not unusual for any of these weapons to travel to other locations including Yemen.

You might use the search at the top header of the page to retrieve some of the lengthy discussions that have covered these under 'kattara'. I think you will find the results greatly informative.

Thank you for posting these!!

[SwedeGreen]

Thank you to Jim, Emanuel (again), and Mr. Alnakkas for your welcome and info. I seem to have broken two Forum rules already so excuse me and thanks for your patience.

I'll study the forums on Kattaras while enjoying all of the rich information from the rest of this interesting field.

Respectfully
Johnny

[Emanuel]

Wow I'm confused

So...the sayf is straight, the kattara is curved, the old Omani battle swords were called Yamani Sayf, and this type of hilt was identified by Ibrahiim as the older, original long kattara handle, before it was simplified to the tapered one we know.

So are these old, long Omani Yamani Sayfs missing quillons? They seem quite substantial with good blades, and they seem to have some age, so why modern and ceremonial?

For reference, here are the most recent relevant threads:
Kattara for comments
You may know them as Omani Saifs but they will always be Kattara to me

All the best,
Emanuel

[Rick]

Agree, they are the oldest looking 'modern' swords that I have seen in a long time .

Can you elaborate, Jim ?

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Salaams all~ These are Saudia swords and often found in Yemen close to the Saudia border. I have shown examples on Kattara for comment. The blades are not flexible though they often sport a single short fuller or sometimes a long fuller in the Ethiopian style which I suspect is on the first sword illustrated.
The hilt bears an uncanny relationship to the old Omani battle sword in that it appears similar yet somehow stretched. So far as I can see however they are unrelated otherwise.
I have an identical hilt fitted to an Ethiopian blade(originally German) Michael Blalock has shown similar swords from both regional souks and military museums. Occasionally they pitch up in Muscat Souk but are also very common in Sanaa.
It appears that there is a link through sword style to the Mamluke period which in turn copied styles of Abbasiid swords.

These are absolutely not Omani types.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

Welcome Johnny, and these four swords are Omani kattara, and from what we have learned from Ibrahiim, who has done extensive research on these, they are primarily ceremonial swords used in Omani traditional performances. They are of course modern, and as mentioned we do not openly appraise or discuss values, but you may of course contact us privately for such matters.
I believe the blades for these are produced in Oman, and has been noted by Lofty the mounts are distinctly Omani, but not unusual for any of these weapons to travel to other locations including Yemen.

You might use the search at the top header of the page to retrieve some of the lengthy discussions that have covered these under 'kattara'. I think you will find the results greatly informative.

Thank you for posting these!!

Salaams Jim, These swords are from Saudia/Yemen and whilst they look a little bit like the Omani variant saif... or dancing saif... they aren't. The blades are quite stiff. The odd looking hilts look similar to the old Omani battle sword, though, stretched and crude. I suspect a Hadramaut hand in the blade making and other blades which I have encountered in this Red Sea variant include Ethiopian... one of which I have. Michael Blalock lists this style with photos from both Yemen and Saudia souk and museum.
Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi

[A.alnakkas]

It is safe to say that what shows up in souks (markets, like any markets around the world) is not evidence of local use. Though its really hard to pinpoint where these are from but if its from a land now encompassed by Saudi Arabia then it may offer evidence of a pre-badawi hilt type of sword? Imo Yemen is a more likely candidate as Ibrahim points out and some exist in the Yemeni museum, is it possible to contact them perhaps?

[Jim McDougall]

Thank you for the clarification Ibrahiim, I was hoping you would come in on this as you have been responsible for the considerable advances we have gained toward these and the range of Arabian weapons in Oman and other areas there.

I had thought these might be examples of the 'dancing' saif you have discussed, which is why I used the term 'modern' as Rick noted. In my understanding these type swords which have been termed collectively as 'kattara' in collectors circles for years, it seems that the more rigid blades were indeed combat intended, and these certainly must have diffused widely as they are well known in Zanzibar, the Omani Sultanate in East Africa.
It seems we discussed the movement of blades throughout Yemen and the southern Arabian regions both via coastal routes and caravans through interior.

I think that as Emanuel has noted, much of the classification developed through our discussions has become confusing, and possibly we might reiterate.

First of all, it is important I think, to note that the Arabian term sa'if or sayf is a collective term used for 'sword' ,not necessarily otherwise specified.
It can be used to describe a broadsword (as kaskaras, and others), a single edged sword (often denoted as a backsword) or varying forms of sabres (from nimcha to shamshir etc).

The old Omani battle sword, originally described in Robert Elgood's "Arabian Arms and Armour" (2.15) as presumed to be a kind of proto-kattara, has been now realized to be a traditionally long standing type of combat sword, typically with shorter blade, and common to Omans interior with primarily Ibathi Muslim associations. The style of these hilts are believed to have quite early stylistic origins.

The often cylindrically hilted broadswords long associated with Oman, and often with blades quite similar to those on kaskaras and other German oriented trade blades are believed to be associated with Muscat, and the trade oriented coastal regions, thus thier wide diffusion. These are typically termed 'kattara', again in a collectors sense, and I personally consider them and those found with curved blades, also kattara in the common parlance.
These are often sumptiously decorated with silver and fine mounts, as I believe these were worn as status symbols by merchants and individuals of high station.

The dancing versions of kattara, are with varying versions of the cylindrical to flattened cylinder or cuff type hilt (like these) but with blades which are dramatically flexible, a key element of the ceremonial Funoon which has been well described by Ibrahiim in discussions.

Since swords remained widely in use in an around Arabia well into the 20th century (in many places of course they still are), this brought my 'modern' term, in the sense that regardless of age of the blades, these are traditionally remounted through many generations. Naturally in many cases they are worn as accoutrements, and may often end up in souks and bazaars from trades with tribesmen as well as those which may sometimes be produced commercially.

I think that in general discussion the term kattara serves well collectively for this form of hilt, though the old Omani hilt is best noted descriptively. The others with developing or hybridized hilt are probably best described as Omani kattara variant, as well as the curved blade examples.
In focused scholarly discussion naturally more detailed description and categorization would be expected.

All the best,
Jim

[SwedeGreen]

Shokran Ibrahiim al Balooshi and thanks to all for your insight.

I've looked at many photos on the internet, have not yet begun looking for museum collections. The closest example of this hilt that I've found is on the website of Fort Antiques under "Omani Swords", item S20, photo attached. They list it as such:

"Very old Mamluke design hilt possibly 7th Century refitted on a 18th or 19th Century European (German) trade blade for the Ethiopian market . Obtained via Yemen and Muscat. This is a SAYF variant." FortAntiques

I discounted the reference to the Mamlukes until Mr. Balooshi's comment on a possible connection as an early example.

Would the blades be contemporaneous with the hilts or later trade blades?

Any insight on the time frame of the hilts and / or blades?

Respectfully Requested
Johnny

[Richard G]

Johnny,
I am intrigued by the hilts on these swords:-

1, Do they all have that window or fenestration on one side? i.e. Nos 1 and 3 show the "reverse", so's to speak, of nos 2 and 4?

2, it almost looks as if the scabbard pushes up inside the hilt so that the blade can then no longer be seen through the window. On no 4 the scabbard even seems to have a tongue designed specifically for that purpose. Is this the case?

If so, I've never seen anything like that before , or any reference to it.

Regards
Richard

[SwedeGreen]

Richard:
You are correct, there is a space between the bottom of the hilt and the blade to receive the wood scabbards. The scabbards recess into the hilts.

I must inspect them more carefully to answer about the "window" on only one side. I believe you are right but need to travel two hours to see them again at my father's. I’ll take more and better photos and number them for review.

Not noted earlier is that the design on each of the four hilts is worn more on one side. This indicates to us that they were worn by rubbing against the body or saddle through long use. Perhaps another clue to their use as battle swords rather than pageant "Kattaras".

Respectfully
Johnny

[Michael Blalock]

Hi, Johnny, nice Yemeni swords. Do you know who brought them from Yemen?

[SwedeGreen]

Michael:
I don't. A German woman and her husband. They may have been in the US Diplomatic Service in the 1960's. My Dad trades in old West memorabilia and bought these from the widow in Northern Colorado last month. I'll ask him for more details.

Johnny

[kahnjar1]

Originally Posted by SwedeGreen

Shokran Ibrahiim al Balooshi and thanks to all for your insight.

I've looked at many photos on the internet, have not yet begun looking for museum collections. The closest example of this hilt that I've found is on the website of Fort Antiques under "Omani Swords", item S20, photo attached. They list it as such:

"Very old Mamluke design hilt possibly 7th Century refitted on a 18th or 19th Century European (German) trade blade for the Ethiopian market . Obtained via Yemen and Muscat. This is a SAYF variant." FortAntiques

I discounted the reference to the Mamlukes until Mr. Balooshi's comment on a possible connection as an early example.

Would the blades be contemporaneous with the hilts or later trade blades?

Any insight on the time frame of the hilts and / or blades?

Respectfully Requested
Johnny

FYI Johnny, Fort Antiques and Ibrahiim are one and the same.

[Richard G]

Johhny,

Thank you for the reply. I wonder if any other of our forumites have seen hilts like these, with a window opening on to the blade?

I also notice the ridges that extend down either side or the sheath element of the hilt look as if they could be welded on. Is this the case?

My guess is that the blades are the oldest parts of these swords and the hilts fitted to them sometime not too long ago, post WWII?

Regards
Richard

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by SwedeGreen

Shokran Ibrahiim al Balooshi and thanks to all for your insight.

I've looked at many photos on the internet, have not yet begun looking for museum collections. The closest example of this hilt that I've found is on the website of Fort Antiques under "Omani Swords", item S20, photo attached. They list it as such:

"Very old Mamluke design hilt possibly 7th Century refitted on a 18th or 19th Century European (German) trade blade for the Ethiopian market . Obtained via Yemen and Muscat. This is a SAYF variant." FortAntiques

I discounted the reference to the Mamlukes until Mr. Balooshi's comment on a possible connection as an early example.

Would the blades be contemporaneous with the hilts or later trade blades?

Any insight on the time frame of the hilts and / or blades?

Respectfully Requested
Johnny

Salaams Johnny, As pointed out by Khanjar 1 ...I am indeed fortantiques.net and in large part the website is my own take on Omani Weapons... especially Swords and Khanjars. The huge thread on Kattara for comments http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=10455 is a mega discussion on the broad subject of Omani fighting swords and dancing swords. In it there are references and photos of a lot of styles including the Saudia/Yemeni variant which is the central topic on this thread. I encourage anyone studying the subject to at least scan through that thread as it is full of facts and interesting twists.

Notwithstanding how the international community calls the swords the correct name for any straight sword in Oman is Sayf (or Saif) whilst curved swords are called Kattara. Kattara (not an Arabic word) is a relatively modern term perhaps instigated around 1744 at the inception of the Al Bussaidi Dynasty. It also fits the time-frame for the cross pollination of the long Omani hilt from/of the Omani dancing sword...

The Straight long flexible two edged razor sharp (new style) Omani Sayf not to be confused with the Omani Battle Sayf or Sayf Yamaani which goes back in style to the battles after 751 AD to rid Oman of the Abassiids(from Iraq) garrisoned here in Buraimi and other Omani centres to persecute Omanis who had formed a breakaway Ibaathi Muslim Sect. I will put up photographs to illustrate each sword and briefly its history later.

On top of these types there are some other curved Kattara including the Shamshir (no one calls them shamshiirs ~ they call them kattara~ because they are curved) Then there are the heavy backbladed slave trader swords..mighty things with the Omani long hilt from the dancing sword style...they are curved and so they are called Kattara. Occasionally there is a short ships weapon really simply an adaption of the Yemeni adaption of the Zanzibari Nimcha though here one has to be careful as there are lots of types as seen at Butin. The very aristocratic gold inlaid Zanzibari style was certainly an Omani style for Political heads of state, VIPs and merchants... after all Oman ejected the Portuguese from Muscat in 1650 and pursued them down the coast and did the same to them in Zanzibar... Oman owned Zanzibar for many years.

What tends to get confusing is that the generic term used for all swords is Sayf !!

It is important to grasp the vital difference between the Omani Battle Sword and the more recent dancing sword which pays homage to the old sword and the ancestors that wielded it...which has confused several learned visitors over the last 3 centuries tricking them into believing that the razor sharp flexible dancing sayf was a weapon when in fact it never saw a battle because it is and never has been a weapon..Its a dancing sword only; however, it looks battle worthy and if someone had mind to swipe with it; it would certainly work ! It could take off an arm. However it was and is only for dancing (plus it has a mock fight dance contest) and causes extreme mirth when you ask local people about its use as a fighting weapon...

Omani Battle Sword (sayf Yamaani) circa 751 ad> Dancing Sayf.circa 1744 ad

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

QUOTE=Jim McDougall]Thank you for the clarification Ibrahiim, I was hoping you would come in on this as you have been responsible for the considerable advances we have gained toward these and the range of Arabian weapons in Oman and other areas there.

2.I had thought these might be examples of the 'dancing' saif you have discussed, which is why I used the term 'modern' as Rick noted. In my understanding these type swords which have been termed collectively as 'kattara' in collectors circles for years, it seems that the more rigid blades were indeed combat intended, and these certainly must have diffused widely as they are well known in Zanzibar, the Omani Sultanate in East Africa.
It seems we discussed the movement of blades throughout Yemen and the southern Arabian regions both via coastal routes and caravans through interior.

3.I think that as Emanuel has noted, much of the classification developed through our discussions has become confusing, and possibly we might reiterate.

4.First of all, it is important I think, to note that the Arabian term sa'if or sayf is a collective term used for 'sword' ,not necessarily otherwise specified.
It can be used to describe a broadsword (as kaskaras, and others), a single edged sword (often denoted as a backsword) or varying forms of sabres (from nimcha to shamshir etc).

5.The old Omani battle sword, originally described in Robert Elgood's "Arabian Arms and Armour" (2.15) as presumed to be a kind of proto-kattara, has been now realized to be a traditionally long standing type of combat sword, typically with shorter blade, and common to Omans interior with primarily Ibathi Muslim associations. The style of these hilts are believed to have quite early stylistic origins.

6.The often cylindrically hilted broadswords long associated with Oman, and often with blades quite similar to those on kaskaras and other German oriented trade blades are believed to be associated with Muscat, and the trade oriented coastal regions, thus thier wide diffusion. These are typically termed 'kattara', again in a collectors sense, and I personally consider them and those found with curved blades, also kattara in the common parlance.
These are often sumptiously decorated with silver and fine mounts, as I believe these were worn as status symbols by merchants and individuals of high station.

7.The dancing versions of kattara, are with varying versions of the cylindrical to flattened cylinder or cuff type hilt (like these) but with blades which are dramatically flexible, a key element of the ceremonial Funoon which has been well described by Ibrahiim in discussions.

8.Since swords remained widely in use in an around Arabia well into the 20th century (in many places of course they still are), this brought my 'modern' term, in the sense that regardless of age of the blades, these are traditionally remounted through many generations. Naturally in many cases they are worn as accoutrements, and may often end up in souks and bazaars from trades with tribesmen as well as those which may sometimes be produced commercially.

9.I think that in general discussion the term kattara serves well collectively for this form of hilt, though the old Omani hilt is best noted descriptively. The others with developing or hybridized hilt are probably best described as Omani kattara variant, as well as the curved blade examples.
In focused scholarly discussion naturally more detailed description and categorization would be expected.

All the best,
Jim[/QUOTE]





My reference is Kattara for comment at~ http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=10455

Salaams Jim, I hope you don't mind me numbering your paragraphs and setting the blue colour so I may reply accordingly to each one:

Para 1 Thank you for that and the support on the subject from yourself and many others on Forum. I believe the hot anvil of debate cracked this one wide open though there are a few answers to questions still to be determined such as where precisely was the Old Battle Sword made? When exactly did the dancing sword appear and thus a similar date on the conical flat long hilt...which appears on both the dancer and the slave trader weapon? Where were the dancing blades manufactured ? No evidence exists whatsoever of a European base for Omani dancing swords/blades..Red Sea swords yes, Omani dancing swords no. Where blade marks have been viewed on Omani swords these have been placed by smiths in Mussandam and other parts of Oman and where occasionally a European mark appears like moons(peter Munch style) or the running wolf they are clearly copied and in most cases roughly so.


Para 2. When I first saw these blades some time ago it set me off down a wild goose chase after a non existent sword group as I had linked them to the Old Omani Battle Sword...Sayf Yamaani... These Saudia blades are thicker and quite rigid and even a little broader at the throat. They are certainly Saudia/ Yemeni items. There may be a Hadramauti link. I cannot say if they were fighting weapons though they seem capable of it and are heavy enough. They crop up in Muscat souk and the source is Sanaa... confirmed. Whatever they were in the old days (if they were around then) they are now being sold as Arabian swords on the tourist network. I even have one of these hilts fitted with an Ethiopian (German) blade.

Para 3 and 4. Notwithstanding the International sword nomenclature... Straight swords are Sayf (or Saif) whilst curved are Kattara. As you point out ,however, the generic term for all swords here is Sayf (or Saif)

Para 5. Robert Elgood is an excellent historian and Ethnographic Arma and Armour specialist. I see that he was at Nizwa this week giving a presentation on The Said Bin Sultan Sword. (The owner ruled in Oman from 1804 to 1866 and one of his wives, the infamous Sheherazad , designed the Royal Bussaidi Hilt to a Khanjar and Sword and the Royal Turban).

In addition, however, I have crosslinked this sword through the Funoon as the traditional Omani Battle Sword. No one else has done this. This is the ancient Sayf wa Terrs from the earliest period in Ibathi history when they were fighting the Abasiid here. I have compared its design in 12 separate ways with the Abassiid weapon at the Topkapi museum and shown proof that this was a slash and chop weapon for fast work behind and with the buckler shield. (No other sword researcher has attempted this). see reference http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=10455 post

One of the great clues which inspired me was the introduction in Islamic Arms and Armour by the late Antony North where he describes the effect of weapons freeze in Islamic lands. That sword froze from then til now! Even today it is being Iconized and worn by VIPs etc.

Para 6. The flatish cylindrical hilt seen on curved Omani Kattara is indeed the weapon chosen by Merchants and Slave traders. When did the cylindrical flatish hilt appear and apparently it appeared on the dancing sword ~ did this switch happen at the same time? What is the date of the appearance of the long flat cylinder hilt? As a provisional date I have scribbled in 1744 since I think the dancing sword appeared about then as an Al Bussaidi sword of dance in respect of the forefathers...the users of the old sword(sayf Yamaani). Then I assume it jumped from the dancer to the long curved heavy backbladed Kattara... for Vips; Royalty Merchants and Slavetraders..

Para 7. The Dancing straight Omani Sayf... (Whats in a name?...Its a Sayf) Not Kattara... Kattara aren't flexible. Sayfs are.

Para 8. I agree. Many swords get rehilted and more so for the tourist market. My Saudi hilted German bladed Ethiopian sword was fitted together in Muscat. The same has happened in Sanaa... It's part of the game.

Para 9. I don't know ... Personally if someone is referring to a blade they can use the proper description or add the details. They can call it a Sayf... and add the details but using the name Kattara which is a non Arab word that no one knows either what it means and it only arrived late on the scene... I suggest ought only be used for curved variants. Its not that vital so long as the information is clear. I think we will be living with the anomaly for a while ...ha !

" The Straights the Sayf The Curved is The Kattara..."

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi

[Jim McDougall]

Thank you so much Ibrahiim for this excellent and detailed coverage which reiterates the intricacies of these terms as used in Arabia, and Oman in particular on this group of sometimes closely associated swords.

What I like the most, as a researcher on historic edged weapons for many years myself, is that you have yourself promoted advancing knowledge and adding informative material on these weapon forms. I think that is what makes this forum great is how these topics get discussed in detail, and we can all evaluate and assess the material into the perspective we need to effectively gain better understanding of development and terminology on these forms.

I had forgotten previous discussions with regard to the sayf Yemeni, which it appears these swords posted by Johnny would be classified if I understand correctly. It is my impression these are versions of the Omani kattara (sayf)
as described as the cylindrically hilted, guardless broadswords for higher echelon and prominant merchants in Oman and of course Zanzibar. It is interesting that these Yemeni versions carry similar hilts, with the peaked cylinder or domed pommel resembling the Ibaathi swords of Oman's interior and from quite early date in a traditional form hilts.

I have long believed personally that the profound presence of Omani merchants and traders beyond Zanzibar into Africas interior may have provided influence to similarly hilted swords such as the seme of Kenya's Maasai and the guardless sabres of the Manding in Mali. Naturally these may have developed through diffusion and influence rather than direct contact with the Omanis themselves.

Returning to the forms of 'kattara', both straight broadsword and the curved forms, it is interesting to note the use of the term for the curved swords of this type hilt as well. I am still unclear of the use of this term for the short sabres which often fall into the 'nimcha' heading, often seen in maritime circumstances. The nimcha term is often incorrectly applied, particularly in the Maghreb, where the sabres known by that term and typically mounted with trade or foreign blades, many long and straight, are called nimcha.

The forms of 'nimcha' referred to in Butin as from Zanzibar, typically with a characteristic ring projecting from the crossguard, seem to have been prevalent in Yemen and probably in other Omani ports of call. These I have always seen termed 'nimcha' and but not kattara, but like many terms, the collectors venue has often dictated terms colloquially accepted, whether correct or not.

My earlier comments on these four Yemeni sayfs were presuming from photos that these blades were the typically more modern Omani produced thin blades for the dancing type swords. As has been noted, these appear to be heavier combat worthy trade blades and probably of earlier vintage, but the mounts, though clearly old and scabbards broken, are probably well into 20th century.

As Ibrahiim has well pointed out, the dance versions of swords, like many forms of court and dress swords, can certainly become a formidable weapon which can be used in occasion to some degree, though not having capacity of full combat use.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

Thank you so much Ibrahiim for this excellent and detailed coverage which reiterates the intricacies of these terms as used in Arabia, and Oman in particular on this group of sometimes closely associated swords.

What I like the most, as a researcher on historic edged weapons for many years myself, is that you have yourself promoted advancing knowledge and adding informative material on these weapon forms. I think that is what makes this forum great is how these topics get discussed in detail, and we can all evaluate and assess the material into the perspective we need to effectively gain better understanding of development and terminology on these forms.

I had forgotten previous discussions with regard to the sayf Yemeni, which it appears these swords posted by Johnny would be classified if I understand correctly. It is my impression these are versions of the Omani kattara (sayf)
as described as the cylindrically hilted, guardless broadswords for higher echelon and prominant merchants in Oman and of course Zanzibar. It is interesting that these Yemeni versions carry similar hilts, with the peaked cylinder or domed pommel resembling the Ibaathi swords of Oman's interior and from quite early date in a traditional form hilts.

I have long believed personally that the profound presence of Omani merchants and traders beyond Zanzibar into Africas interior may have provided influence to similarly hilted swords such as the seme of Kenya's Maasai and the guardless sabres of the Manding in Mali. Naturally these may have developed through diffusion and influence rather than direct contact with the Omanis themselves.

Returning to the forms of 'kattara', both straight broadsword and the curved forms, it is interesting to note the use of the term for the curved swords of this type hilt as well. I am still unclear of the use of this term for the short sabres which often fall into the 'nimcha' heading, often seen in maritime circumstances. The nimcha term is often incorrectly applied, particularly in the Maghreb, where the sabres known by that term and typically mounted with trade or foreign blades, many long and straight, are called nimcha.

The forms of 'nimcha' referred to in Butin as from Zanzibar, typically with a characteristic ring projecting from the crossguard, seem to have been prevalent in Yemen and probably in other Omani ports of call. These I have always seen termed 'nimcha' and but not kattara, but like many terms, the collectors venue has often dictated terms colloquially accepted, whether correct or not.

My earlier comments on these four Yemeni sayfs were presuming from photos that these blades were the typically more modern Omani produced thin blades for the dancing type swords. As has been noted, these appear to be heavier combat worthy trade blades and probably of earlier vintage, but the mounts, though clearly old and scabbards broken, are probably well into 20th century.

As Ibrahiim has well pointed out, the dance versions of swords, like many forms of court and dress swords, can certainly become a formidable weapon which can be used in occasion to some degree.

Salaams Jim, Fortunately we have your guiding light and the facilities at your disposal (I refer of course to your twenty ton Ethno Arms and Armour mobile library on route 66 !!) Your broad viewpoint is always appreciated and your in depth knowledge of all these systems is the backbone of this forum.

Your last point if I may ~ It now transpires that the early visitors probably got mixed up rather than mistaken about these weapons. Some commented as I have done that these dancing swords (which they thought were war swords) were indeed fighting weapons... that could take off an arm or leg... The fact that they were viewed in combat mode ie probably in mock battle form as one of the Funoon pageants where 2 opponents fight it out...using dancing sword and Terrs shield~the winner is the fighter that can touch the opponents other thumb with his sword tip ! ( dodgey business if you ask me as the swords are sharp)... see http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=10455 for a description of Funoon which to western way of thinking is essentially pantomime or the passing down of enacted material through play-lets , dance music and poetry... instead of in written form. (It is in fact what makes the proof of the old sword sacrosanct.) But I speak not of the old sword... Tis the young one I cry halt !! An imposter by any other name yet in this case not quite...It honours the ancestors and the old Sayf Yamani....That is why it is razor sharp... Its the least the modern dance exponent can do... after all dancing isn't exactly dangerous... though with a razor sharp blade it certainly is !! As all exponents of martial arts know... You don't play fight with live blades. You do here! A dancing blade must be sharp... Omanis would rather swim with the sharks than turn out with a blunt dancing sword... never! The fact that the shield also passed over to the dancing sword further confused the visitors..I mean why have a shield if you aren't going to fight... Purely honorary purely traditional; not for fighting.

Whilst all this was going on what was the system that did away with bladed weapons... Gunpowder. Not only did we see the demise (though oft iconised) of swords but the main weapon The Spear all but vanished .. Quite simply it wasn't something easily made an Icon from... being very cumbersome... whereas swords and daggers ... no problem.

I placed an old Omani Battle Sword into the Tareq Rajeb in Quwait with a scabbard which had brass furniture. I believe most scabbards got re made... not difficult. What I think was difficult was the manufacture of the blade..which on inspection appear to be watered steel. I point toward either Hadramaut or Nizwa. Common sense would dictate that Nizwa is the answer though I hesitate without proof as yet.

Some Omani Swords below with a few interlopers thrown in ...Forumites please see if you can spot which is which ?

Yours is an interesting take on the influence of African styles on the "dancer" which I suspect came in with the Bussaidi dynasty from about 1744~ and diffused onto the slaver sword (or perhaps logically vica versa?) I simply don't have the evidence to support that yet but it is plausible.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[SwedeGreen]

Khanjar 1: Thank you for making the connection for me of Ibrahiim al Balooshi and Fort Antiques. Haha. That clears a few things up.

Richard G: Yes the hilts are welded but the welds appear to be forge welds which could have been hammered out during any era. Just a guess but could the purpose of the hilt "windows" be to easily see if the sayf is seated in the sheath?

Ibrahiim al Balooshi & Jim: Your knowledge of these is wonderful to read. Thank you. From what I am gathering do you think that I would be correct in describing these swords thus?

Saudi / Yemeni Sayfs
Made between 751 & 1744
Sheaths: Probably early 20th century


Ibrahiim al Balooshi I have sent you an inquiry on your Fort Antiques website not knowing it was you.

Respectfully
Johnny

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by SwedeGreen

Khanjar 1: Thank you for making the connection for me of Ibrahiim al Balooshi and Fort Antiques. Haha. That clears a few things up.

Richard G: Yes the hilts are welded but the welds appear to be forge welds which could have been hammered out during any era. Just a guess but could the purpose of the hilt "windows" be to easily see if the sayf is seated in the sheath?

Ibrahiim al Balooshi & Jim: Your knowledge of these is wonderful to read. Thank you. From what I am gathering do you think that I would be correct in describing these swords thus?

Saudi / Yemeni Sayfs
Made between 751 & 1744
Sheaths: Probably early 20th century


Ibrahiim al Balooshi I have sent you an inquiry on your Fort Antiques website not knowing it was you.

Respectfully
Johnny

Salaams SwedeGreen No. The 4 Saudia Yemeni swords are newish ~ perhaps about 50 years old but nothing to do with Omani swords or the Omani sword dates of 751 or 1744. The scabbards are worn but probably about the same vintage(50 years?),... Solar and sand degradation on leather is very punishing.
(I replied to your inquiry the other day.)
Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

[SwedeGreen]

Ibrahiim al Balooshi

Thank you again. Got it, 20th Century Saudi / Yemeni Sayfs

Johnny

[kahnjar1]

Recently there were published here, some pics of the so called Omani Battle Sword which had recently had modern made covering added to the bare hilt, and scabbards made.
My question relates to the Yemeni/Saudi swords which feature in this thread. Did they ever have a covering over the metal handle, and if so, what did it look like?
Stu

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by kahnjar1

Recently there were published here, some pics of the so called Omani Battle Sword which had recently had modern made covering added to the bare hilt, and scabbards made.
My question relates to the Yemeni/Saudi swords which feature in this thread. Did they ever have a covering over the metal handle, and if so, what did it look like?
Stu

Salaams kahnjar1. This is an excellent question.

In respect of the pictures at #1, which you describe as Yemeni / Saudi swords I suspected that these were like the backyard knocking shop redone hilts on European blades at a recent thread http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=16605 and having replaced Rhino holts later used on Jambia... the resulting swords then spuriously offered through other souks and marketed generally as ethnographic items etc etc i.e. tourist swords. ( I now suggest that this was incorrect and a re-appraisal is required insofar as these long Saudia Yemen hilts)

Conversely I have never seen a leather covered hilt on these long metal hilts AND THUS THE REAPPRAISAL OFFERED BY A CLOSER SCRUTINY OF # 1. What makes it so suspicious is the quantity at which they are appearing... Mutrah has scores of them. It is for this reason that I suspected that they were in plentiful supply having perhaps been done relatively recently and in the same time frame and reasoning as the others. In other words they appeared direct from the Yemeni / Saudia workshops direct onto the local and neighboring countries markets as metal hilts with virtually no provenance. ( THIS IS NOW REFUTED BACKED UP BY THE SCABBARD SHOTS AT 1)

Having carefully looked at #1 pictures with scabbards I begin to reframe on that hypothesis and for that reason urge a re-opening on the debate since The scabbards look like they were deliberately fitted at the same time as the hilts...which look old(Whereas most examples I have seen are without scabbards)...It begs the question "What is the provenance on these long metal hilts" ?

I think we could be looking at a species of Yemeni/Saudia Sword from the 19th C or before with a related hilt to the Omani Battle Sword except that it is stretched to conform with the longer blade for balance.

It can be noted therefor that this is a see-sawing debate as originally that was mooted on the longer thread on Omani Kattara but changed.

This is entirely different from Omani Battle Swords which as you are aware are the only true battlesword in the Omani Armoury. See http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=16482

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[kahnjar1]

Salaams Ibrahiim. Thanks for the link to the modern dress on the Omani Battle Sword. I have taken the liberty to repost one of your pics to show how they look....
QUESTION....Do you have an irrefutible link to information that this is how these looked in the past?......or is this your impression of how they would have looked? Any photos I have seen of these swords has shown them with bare metal hilts.
The other comment which has appeared often in these threads is the possible reuse of rhino sword hilts for jambiyas. I would have thought that sword hilts would not be big enough to refashion into handles for jambiya.

Anyway...on to the subject of my original question which was to try and find out what, if any hilt covering was on the Yemeni/Saudi swords shown by SWEDEGREEN.

I read with interest your new "take" on these swords, even to suggest that they just might be a "genuine" type, rather than (as you put it) some knocked up backyard item.
There are "quite a few" of these around (as there are Omani Saifs) and it would be reasonable to assume that more would be in their country of origin than elsewhere. The four shown above, it is stated, came out of Yemen in the 1960s, and I have one on the way to me which also came from there about the same time. The actual year in this case was 1963, and I have well provenanced details of who bought it out.
Now to the scabbards. IF these were made as "tourist" items, then why would the maker bother to make a nice scabbard and then "distress" it so that it looked old. Elsewhere in this discussion on bedouin swords and the like, it has been stated that tourism as we know it today, was in its infancy in Arabia in the 1960s and the modern "skills" of aging to mislead, would not in my opinion have been thought of, or at least not widely practiced.

So......do we have a hitherto "unknown", or at least "undiscussed" line of swords? It will be interesting to see where this discussion leads.
Further to my comment above, I have posted some pics of the sword which is on the way to me. These are sellers pics but they show a couple of interesting features. This sword has silver decoration and the drag of the scabbard is well worn skin of some sort....purported to be lion, but I think more likely goat or suchlike. I really think it most unlikely that any maker would bother to use skin and then "distress" it just to fool an unwitting buyer.

Comments Gentlemen please

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by kahnjar1

Salaams Ibrahiim. Thanks for the link to the modern dress on the Omani Battle Sword. I have taken the liberty to repost one of your pics to show how they look....
QUESTION....Do you have an irrefutible link to information that this is how these looked in the past?......or is this your impression of how they would have looked? Any photos I have seen of these swords has shown them with bare metal hilts.
The other comment which has appeared often in these threads is the possible reuse of rhino sword hilts for jambiyas. I would have thought that sword hilts would not be big enough to refashion into handles for jambiya.

Anyway...on to the subject of my original question which was to try and find out what, if any hilt covering was on the Yemeni/Saudi swords shown by SWEDEGREEN.

I read with interest your new "take" on these swords, even to suggest that they just might be a "genuine" type, rather than (as you put it) some knocked up backyard item.
There are "quite a few" of these around (as there are Omani Saifs) and it would be reasonable to assume that more would be in their country of origin than elsewhere. The four shown above, it is stated, came out of Yemen in the 1960s, and I have one on the way to me which also came from there about the same time. The actual year in this case was 1963, and I have well provenanced details of who bought it out.
Now to the scabbards. IF these were made as "tourist" items, then why would the maker bother to make a nice scabbard and then "distress" it so that it looked old. Elsewhere in this discussion on bedouin swords and the like, it has been stated that tourism as we know it today, was in its infancy in Arabia in the 1960s and the modern "skills" of aging to mislead, would not in my opinion have been thought of, or at least not widely practiced.

So......do we have a hitherto "unknown", or at least "undiscussed" line of swords? It will be interesting to see where this discussion leads.
Further to my comment above, I have posted some pics of the sword which is on the way to me. These are sellers pics but they show a couple of interesting features. This sword has silver decoration and the drag of the scabbard is well worn skin of some sort....purported to be lion, but I think more likely goat or suchlike. I really think it most unlikely that any maker would bother to use skin and then "distress" it just to fool an unwitting buyer.

Comments Gentlemen please

Salaams Khanjar 1. When we were looking at the Sayf Yamaani.. The Old Omani Battle Sword ... in preparation for cladding the hilt in leather we looked at the Muscat National Museum and Bayt Zubair Museum for examples and took our lead from theirs. As I recall the Al Ain Museum also has an example, however, that one may not be covered. I researched another big private collection of 25 such weapons and discussed the issue with the owner and we all agreed with the Muscat Museums restoration. Naturally hilts of that vintage had lost their leather hilt covers. In addition I only saw one or two with actual scabbards though one of mine with scabbard is in the TRM Museum in Quwait. The hilts in Muscat Museums have also some with long strips of leather counterwoven in a sort of zig zag style onto the hilts and some are complete one piece covers as you show. (We followed the same style of "scabbard" in the restored swords also.)

On the subject of re used Rhino sword hilts for Jambia I have not seen any in original form thus the concept is likely based on a story that so far as I can deduce holds water and is feasible though I have never seen an original. As in all detective work it is really only proven 100% when a real MCoy turns up but the indicators are there for a reasonable assumption to prevail for now.... otherwise we would be at a standstill all over the spectrum no? Absolute certainty is a rare commodity in these matters and in the case of new information it is important to consider all things in that new light.

In view of that I think it right that the Red Sea long hilt be placed under the forum microscope since it could be a very interesting one to unravel. The blade is long and stiff and not the dancing blade of Oman by any means. Is this a fighting blade? Did it have a round tip or a point? Where was it made Yemen Saudia or both or Yemen in the old days and then the area was absorbed into Saudia? (I use the word Saudia to indicate an area rather than historically time wise) The hilt is intriguing being like a stretched version of the Omani Battler in many respects and it would be interesting to know if the two are actually related.

We have seen how the region in southern Saudia has been influenced by the Muscat Khanjar/Royal Khanjar so perhaps the same thing happened with this sword in a similar time scale i.e. mid 19th C. Or is this purely co-incidence?

You mention the leather scabbard cover ... Indeed this could be an indicator of provenance since often they covered weapons with wolf skin..which is what I suspect is on the photo...to ward off evil spirits and strengthen the sword/owner..thus it is a Talismanic effect.

On the question of hilt cover? This is a long meaty heavy blade and for practical reasons if it was a sword I see no reason why it wasn't covered but I have never seen one covered nor do I know for sure what it was used for. I am not certain where the ensemble originates either as they appear in Yemen and Saudia museums and souks. I have Ethiopian blades rehilted on this style but suggest that this is a red herring..but caution that the hilt does in fact follow the monumental style of the Horn of Africa hilts so that area cannot be ruled out yet.

Further intrigue is posed by the comparison of the hilt to the long Omani dancing hilt and the slavers curved sword style... both commomly refered to as the Long Omani Hilt and what relationship if any there is between them. Could it be for example that the Red Sea metal hilt and sword was the forerunner to the Dancing Sayf (and the slavers style hilt) or vica-versa or totally unrelated?

In conclusion the debate is, so far as I can see, entirely open, thus, any ideas from anyone are welcome.

Looking ahead I refer readers to Michael Blalocks http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ilitary+museum and an example is at #1 but it is at #14 that another question arrises... Are these Red Sea variants supposedly from Yemen / Saudia related to the sword in the Wallace collection ~ see # 14. Staying for a final moment to view the picture in the museum on the same page at reference there is what appears to be a German blade on one of the long Red Sea variant hilts.


Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.