need help: black forest? statue with cane

josh stout · 14th October 2018, 12:47 AM

My apologies for this not being completely weapons based, but the gentleman seems to have a heavy walking stick (or perhaps it is the old woman's?), so it is slightly related.

The scene of a gentleman/fop having his palm read appears to be in wood and ivory. A hot pin did not sink in, and came away with the smell of burning wood.

My daughter found it in her great grandmother's attic after being told she could keep whatever she found. Anything could be there. Other things included a czarist era Cossack outfit and antique Mexican masks, as well as piles of cheap tourist junk.

I have been unable to find any information on about it, and I cannot find any makers' marks. It does seem to resemble "Black Forest" carvings, but I have no idea. A local antique dealer told my daughter it is made of resin. I think he is very mistaken, but I have been wrong before. All the pieces are separate, and not cast together. For example, there is what appears to be an ivory peg that would have held a now lost beer mug. The old lady and gentleman's hands are two separate pieces.

Please help if you can, and let me know about the cane as well while you are at it

Thanks.

corrado26 · 14th October 2018, 09:29 AM

These figures are certainly not made in the Black Forest where ivory carvings are unknown, their origine might rather be in the Netherlands
corrado26

fernando · 14th October 2018, 11:51 AM

Dear Josh,
Images hardly weapon related, even including a (non sword) cane

.
They are now rotated to their right position. Picture #4 looks off scene, though.
Let us move your thread to the Miscellania forum, where it will be less unrelated ... so to say.

Jon MB · 14th October 2018, 10:22 PM

Agree, looks like figures from the Netherlands.

The felt covering to the base suggests a later date than the appearance and dress of the figures might first indicate.

Notice the realistic effect achieved in wood of the folds in the sides of the gentleman's waistcoat.

Nice piece.

josh stout · 15th October 2018, 02:55 PM

Thanks for putting it in the right place.

The Netherlands is a god tip. I was looking for carving good enough to look like resin, and found the "black Forest" carvings, but indeed they had no ivory.

I really don't have a sense of the age of this carving. Do you agree it is not resin? I don't see how it can be, but the antique dealer held it in his hand and declared "resin".

At the moment I feel it could be anywhere from 1850 to 1950. I agree it is not as old as the period depicted, but it has some age. The dealer thought it was a mass market item from the 1970s, but I have not been able to find another example.

Jon MB · 16th October 2018, 02:48 PM

Antique dealers may have a paranoia about anything to do with ivory at this point, antique or not.

Wouldn't write off a German connection entirely. Also wondered if could be a Japanese Meiji period item, made for export.

Richard G · 16th October 2018, 08:05 PM

If it is carved wood and it is carved ivory, then it could be 17th or early 18th cent, and if it is - I'd have thought quite important and valuable.
Regards
Richard

josh stout · 16th October 2018, 09:56 PM

It doesn't have the feel of something 18thc or earlier, and I agree that the felt looks much later. I think it is a 19thc copy of an earlier style. Still, it is very nicely carved, much better than most things you run across. It may have been too nice for the antiques dealer to believe it was just walking in the door.

I suspect the antiques dealer evaluated the fifteen year old girl showing him the piece, more than the piece itself.

14th October 2018, 12:47 AM	#1
josh stout Member Join Date: Mar 2007 Posts: 407	need help: black forest? statue with cane My apologies for this not being completely weapons based, but the gentleman seems to have a heavy walking stick (or perhaps it is the old woman's?), so it is slightly related. The scene of a gentleman/fop having his palm read appears to be in wood and ivory. A hot pin did not sink in, and came away with the smell of burning wood. My daughter found it in her great grandmother's attic after being told she could keep whatever she found. Anything could be there. Other things included a czarist era Cossack outfit and antique Mexican masks, as well as piles of cheap tourist junk. I have been unable to find any information on about it, and I cannot find any makers' marks. It does seem to resemble "Black Forest" carvings, but I have no idea. A local antique dealer told my daughter it is made of resin. I think he is very mistaken, but I have been wrong before. All the pieces are separate, and not cast together. For example, there is what appears to be an ivory peg that would have held a now lost beer mug. The old lady and gentleman's hands are two separate pieces. Please help if you can, and let me know about the cane as well while you are at it Thanks. Attached Images Last edited by fernando; 14th October 2018 at 11:43 AM. Reason: Image rotation

14th October 2018, 09:29 AM	#2
corrado26 Member Join Date: Dec 2014 Location: Black Forest, Germany Posts: 1,207	These figures are certainly not made in the Black Forest where ivory carvings are unknown, their origine might rather be in the Netherlands corrado26

14th October 2018, 11:51 AM	#3
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Dear Josh, Images hardly weapon related, even including a (non sword) cane . They are now rotated to their right position. Picture #4 looks off scene, though. Let us move your thread to the Miscellania forum, where it will be less unrelated ... so to say.

14th October 2018, 10:22 PM	#4
Jon MB Member Join Date: Mar 2017 Posts: 143	Agree, looks like figures from the Netherlands. The felt covering to the base suggests a later date than the appearance and dress of the figures might first indicate. Notice the realistic effect achieved in wood of the folds in the sides of the gentleman's waistcoat. Nice piece.

15th October 2018, 02:55 PM	#5
josh stout Member Join Date: Mar 2007 Posts: 407	Thanks for putting it in the right place. The Netherlands is a god tip. I was looking for carving good enough to look like resin, and found the "black Forest" carvings, but indeed they had no ivory. I really don't have a sense of the age of this carving. Do you agree it is not resin? I don't see how it can be, but the antique dealer held it in his hand and declared "resin". At the moment I feel it could be anywhere from 1850 to 1950. I agree it is not as old as the period depicted, but it has some age. The dealer thought it was a mass market item from the 1970s, but I have not been able to find another example.

16th October 2018, 02:48 PM	#6
Jon MB Member Join Date: Mar 2017 Posts: 143	Antique dealers may have a paranoia about anything to do with ivory at this point, antique or not. Wouldn't write off a German connection entirely. Also wondered if could be a Japanese Meiji period item, made for export.

16th October 2018, 08:05 PM	#7
Richard G Member Join Date: Jan 2012 Posts: 406	If it is carved wood and it is carved ivory, then it could be 17th or early 18th cent, and if it is - I'd have thought quite important and valuable. Regards Richard

16th October 2018, 09:56 PM	#8
josh stout Member Join Date: Mar 2007 Posts: 407	It doesn't have the feel of something 18thc or earlier, and I agree that the felt looks much later. I think it is a 19thc copy of an earlier style. Still, it is very nicely carved, much better than most things you run across. It may have been too nice for the antiques dealer to believe it was just walking in the door. I suspect the antiques dealer evaluated the fifteen year old girl showing him the piece, more than the piece itself.