STRANGE KATAR FORM WEAPON INDIA

VANDOO · 19th December 2007, 07:46 PM

A STRANGE AND INTERESTING KATAR FORM WEAPON FROM INDIA ENDED ON EBAY IT WAS #220180632464. IT IS A FORM I HAD NOT SEEN AND THE SELLERS INFORMATION WAS GOOD ON THIS UNUSUAL ITEM ALSO. IT IS ESPECIALLY INTERESTING THAT THE BLADES CAN BE ROTATED TO BE IN DIFFERENT OR THE SAME PLANE.

VANDOO · 19th December 2007, 07:55 PM

CLOSEUP OF THE MECHINISM FOR ROTATING THE BLADES.

Lew · 19th December 2007, 08:03 PM

I saw this one also and was thinking it may have been left here by some Klingon warrior.

The weapon itself does not seem practical due two the two blades that point in towards the user which could result in some form of self impalement

.

Lew

fearn · 19th December 2007, 08:40 PM

Actually, the deer-horn knife from China has two backward pointing blades, and its popular. Of course, I've still got a scar from practicing with a set, but whatever...

I think the bigger impracticality is the rotating blades. I'd prefer them secure in one plane, if I was to cut with them. Spinning on impact is not good.

Fun thing, though. Definitely for the 'fans.

F

Jim McDougall · 20th December 2007, 07:39 AM

Actually the seller did have good information in acknowledging that this extremely innovative piece was probably fashioned relatively recently. It is indeed reminiscent of a type of guard seen on katars attributed to Srirangam, and termed 'turtle shell guards' (referring to Kurma, the 2nd incarnation of Vishnu) and these katars were of late 16th into the 17th century. This crudely fashioned piece does replicate the beaded seam around the guard seen on the original examples, but the similarity with that and the basic shape stops there (see "Hindu Arms and Ritual", Elgood, p.154 #15.21).

It would be difficult to surmise how this five bladed piece could have been effectively employed as a weapon, however I'm sure many of the martial arts enthusiasts will contest. I am more inclined to think that this may have been an exaggeration of other Srirangam katars of this period which had blades coming out of either side of the guard in addition to the center blade.
Possibly this might have been intended to reflect some symbolic association with the five point star? a votive implement?

The sellers fanciful suggestion that this weapon or its type was used by the 'thuggee' is boldly relying on the esoterica of this rather bizarre cult in India. Actually the 'thuggee' were essentially highwaymen who carried out thier depradations while claiming allegiance to the goddess Kali. These murderous groups actually were quite widespread from eastern to central India, possibly further, and were essentially suppressed by about 1840 by the British. The term 'thuggee' (=Hindu, thief) was how they were termed in period literature, but they were also termed 'phansigars' (Hindu=noose). They murdered thier victim by strangulation with a noose, as it was believed they must not spill blood in the act. The only other implement they used was the distinctive pickaxe to bury the bodies.
Therefore an elaborate 'weapon' like this, even if it could be used as a weapon (unless it was intended to scare the victim to death!) would have nothing to do with thuggee.

fearn · 20th December 2007, 07:50 AM

Let me clarify: yes, it can theoretically be used as an effective weapon. The Chinese have a number of "wheel" weapons, of which I'm most familiar with deer horn knives. There's no inherent problem with having points going in five different directions, and the backward pointing ones are good for jabbing back or skewering someone who tries to grab your arm.

The problem is that the blades turn in their sockets. Unless they can be held rigid, this feature makes any slashing manuevers useless, and the weapon can only be used to jab in five different directions.

F

VANDOO · 20th December 2007, 06:03 PM

I AGREE WITH JIM THAT IT IS UNLIKELY THIS HAS ANY RELATION TO THE TUGEE FOR THE REASONS STATED. THEY WERE SAID TO BE PROTECTED BY KALI AND WOULD NOT BE CAUGHT IF THEY FOLLOWED HER RULES THE MAIN ONES WERE NOT TO SPILL THE BLOOD OF THEIR VICTIMS OR TO KILL WOMEN.

I SUSPECT THEY MAY HAVE CARRIED OTHER WEAPONS FOR DEFENSE IF THEY WERE ATTACKED BUT DID NOT USE THEM WHEN THEY INFILTRATED A GROUP AND LULLED THEM INTO TRUSTING THEM BEFORE THEY STRUCK.
A INTERESTING GROUP WHO MURDERED UNTOLD NUMBERS OF PEOPLE OVER A LONG PERIOD. THERE IS A GOOD MOVIE DEALING WITH IT (THE DECIEVERS) STARING PIERCE BRONSON, IT IS WELL DONE WITHOUT OVER DRAMATIZING OR CHANGEING THE HISTORY. I SUSPECT THERE HAVE BEEN SOME MADE BY THE CINIMA IN INDIA BUT HAVE NOT SEEN ANY, INDIANA JONES AND THE OLD 1939 GUNGA DIN MOVIE ALSO BORROWED FROM THE TUGEE BUT WERE NOT ACCURATE, BUT GOOD ENTERTAINMENT NONE THE LESS.

THE WEAPON ABOVE WOULD INDEED INVOKE THE EMOTION "WHAT THE HECK IS THAT EVIL LOOKING THING"

WHEN BRANDISHED BUT WOULD NOT BE A VERY GOOD WEAPON. I ASSUME THE BLADES WERE POSITIONED AS DESIRED AND THEN LOCKED IN PLACE BEFORE USE AND DID NOT TURN FREELY. THE TWO BACK FACEING BLADES COULD SERVE TO KEEP SOMEONE FROM GRABBING THE HAND AS WELL AS ACTING AS A GAURD THEY WOULD ALSO WORK WELL IF THE THING WAS THROWN AT SOME POINT IN THE FIGHT. IT IS FUN TO TRY AND THINK UP WAYS SOMETHING STRANGE LIKE THIS COULD BE USED. HERES ONE SENARIO WAVE IT AROUND UP HIGH THEN THROW IT DOWN AND PIN THE ENEMYS FOOT TO THE GROUND AND USE THE SWORD IN YOUR OTHER HAND TO FINISH UP. IT COULD BE USED FOR PARRING ALONG WITH A SWORD BUT WITH ALL THOSE BLADES YOU WOULD RUN AN INCREASED RISK OF CUTTING YOURSELF.

VANDOO · 22nd December 2007, 03:19 AM

HERE IS ANOTHER STRANGE INDIA KATAR AND A FEW OF THE MANY STRANGE CHINESE SHORT WEAPONS. I HAVE NO INFORMATION ON THE KATAR AND ALL THE CHINESE WEAPONS ARE MODERN ONES FOR MARTIAL ARTS AS I DON'T HAVE ANY PICTURES OF GOOD OLD ONES.
1. 5 BLADED INDIAN KATAR, 2. HOOK TYPE WEAPONS, 3.VARIATION OF HOOK TYPE, 4. ANTLER KNIVES, 5. SUN AND MOON SPEAR BLADES.

THE KATAR IS INTERESTING IN THAT IT COULD BE USED EITHER LEFT OR RIGHT HANDED AND COULD ALSO BE TURNED TO GAURD THE FOREARM AND ALSO STRIKE TO BOTH SIDES AS WELL AS TO THE FRONT.

VANDOO · 22nd December 2007, 04:25 AM

CHINESE SHORT WEAPONS CONTINUED
6. VARIATION OF HOOK FORM, 9 TEETH HOOKS 7. MANDARIN COIN BLADES, 8. WIND AND FIRE WHEELS, 9. YUEN YANG RAZORS ANOTHER VARIATION OF THE HOOK FORM.

THIS WOULD BE A GOOD PLACE TO POST PICTURES OF ANY OF THE AUTHENTIC WEAPONS OF THESE FORMS IF ANYONE HAS SOME.

fearn · 22nd December 2007, 05:17 AM

I don't know that you're going to find to many "old" versions of these weapons, but I can give you some history on the deer horn knives and the mandarin duck knives, aka rooster knives.

Both are used in Baguazhang (pa kua chang). The deer horn knives were the personal weapon of Dong Hai Chuan (1797-1882), founder of the system, and he passed on the weapon to many of his students. The rooster knives were the personal weapons of his youngest disciple, Liang Zhen Pu. Both weapons are well suited to the infighting style of bagua (think shredder) and were used in pairs, one in each hand. Of the two, the deer horn knives are much more widely known, but both are still practiced.

So far as I know (and I'm not an expert in the system by any means), these men invented the weapons specifically to suit their fighting styles, and then passed the weapons and skills on.

Basically, I'd be really, really surprised to see either of these weapons dating much before 1850, and I'd count any that pre-date 1900 to be a real find.

Jim McDougall · 27th December 2007, 03:32 AM

addendum:

In Elgood, "Hindu Arms & Ritual", p.257, an entry noting the 'panjmukh' which is a five headed spear used by the people of Gujerat.
(ref: Codrington Inventory, also found in Egerton #710).

22nd December 2007, 03:19 AM	#8
VANDOO (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: OKLAHOMA, USA Posts: 3,138	HERE IS ANOTHER STRANGE INDIA KATAR AND A FEW OF THE MANY STRANGE CHINESE SHORT WEAPONS. I HAVE NO INFORMATION ON THE KATAR AND ALL THE CHINESE WEAPONS ARE MODERN ONES FOR MARTIAL ARTS AS I DON'T HAVE ANY PICTURES OF GOOD OLD ONES. 1. 5 BLADED INDIAN KATAR, 2. HOOK TYPE WEAPONS, 3.VARIATION OF HOOK TYPE, 4. ANTLER KNIVES, 5. SUN AND MOON SPEAR BLADES. THE KATAR IS INTERESTING IN THAT IT COULD BE USED EITHER LEFT OR RIGHT HANDED AND COULD ALSO BE TURNED TO GAURD THE FOREARM AND ALSO STRIKE TO BOTH SIDES AS WELL AS TO THE FRONT. Attached Images Last edited by VANDOO; 22nd December 2007 at 03:30 AM.

22nd December 2007, 04:25 AM	#9
VANDOO (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: OKLAHOMA, USA Posts: 3,138	CHINESE SHORT WEAPONS CONTINUED 6. VARIATION OF HOOK FORM, 9 TEETH HOOKS 7. MANDARIN COIN BLADES, 8. WIND AND FIRE WHEELS, 9. YUEN YANG RAZORS ANOTHER VARIATION OF THE HOOK FORM. THIS WOULD BE A GOOD PLACE TO POST PICTURES OF ANY OF THE AUTHENTIC WEAPONS OF THESE FORMS IF ANYONE HAS SOME. Attached Images

19th December 2007, 07:46 PM	#1
VANDOO (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: OKLAHOMA, USA Posts: 3,138	STRANGE KATAR FORM WEAPON INDIA A STRANGE AND INTERESTING KATAR FORM WEAPON FROM INDIA ENDED ON EBAY IT WAS #220180632464. IT IS A FORM I HAD NOT SEEN AND THE SELLERS INFORMATION WAS GOOD ON THIS UNUSUAL ITEM ALSO. IT IS ESPECIALLY INTERESTING THAT THE BLADES CAN BE ROTATED TO BE IN DIFFERENT OR THE SAME PLANE. Attached Images

19th December 2007, 07:55 PM	#2
VANDOO (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: OKLAHOMA, USA Posts: 3,138	CLOSEUP OF THE MECHINISM FOR ROTATING THE BLADES. Attached Images

19th December 2007, 08:03 PM	#3
Lew (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: East Coast USA Posts: 3,191	I saw this one also and was thinking it may have been left here by some Klingon warrior. The weapon itself does not seem practical due two the two blades that point in towards the user which could result in some form of self impalement . Lew

19th December 2007, 08:40 PM	#4
fearn Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 1,247	Actually, the deer-horn knife from China has two backward pointing blades, and its popular. Of course, I've still got a scar from practicing with a set, but whatever... I think the bigger impracticality is the rotating blades. I'd prefer them secure in one plane, if I was to cut with them. Spinning on impact is not good. Fun thing, though. Definitely for the 'fans. F

20th December 2007, 07:39 AM	#5
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,943	Actually the seller did have good information in acknowledging that this extremely innovative piece was probably fashioned relatively recently. It is indeed reminiscent of a type of guard seen on katars attributed to Srirangam, and termed 'turtle shell guards' (referring to Kurma, the 2nd incarnation of Vishnu) and these katars were of late 16th into the 17th century. This crudely fashioned piece does replicate the beaded seam around the guard seen on the original examples, but the similarity with that and the basic shape stops there (see "Hindu Arms and Ritual", Elgood, p.154 #15.21). It would be difficult to surmise how this five bladed piece could have been effectively employed as a weapon, however I'm sure many of the martial arts enthusiasts will contest. I am more inclined to think that this may have been an exaggeration of other Srirangam katars of this period which had blades coming out of either side of the guard in addition to the center blade. Possibly this might have been intended to reflect some symbolic association with the five point star? a votive implement? The sellers fanciful suggestion that this weapon or its type was used by the 'thuggee' is boldly relying on the esoterica of this rather bizarre cult in India. Actually the 'thuggee' were essentially highwaymen who carried out thier depradations while claiming allegiance to the goddess Kali. These murderous groups actually were quite widespread from eastern to central India, possibly further, and were essentially suppressed by about 1840 by the British. The term 'thuggee' (=Hindu, thief) was how they were termed in period literature, but they were also termed 'phansigars' (Hindu=noose). They murdered thier victim by strangulation with a noose, as it was believed they must not spill blood in the act. The only other implement they used was the distinctive pickaxe to bury the bodies. Therefore an elaborate 'weapon' like this, even if it could be used as a weapon (unless it was intended to scare the victim to death!) would have nothing to do with thuggee.

20th December 2007, 07:50 AM	#6
fearn Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 1,247	Let me clarify: yes, it can theoretically be used as an effective weapon. The Chinese have a number of "wheel" weapons, of which I'm most familiar with deer horn knives. There's no inherent problem with having points going in five different directions, and the backward pointing ones are good for jabbing back or skewering someone who tries to grab your arm. The problem is that the blades turn in their sockets. Unless they can be held rigid, this feature makes any slashing manuevers useless, and the weapon can only be used to jab in five different directions. F

20th December 2007, 06:03 PM	#7
VANDOO (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: OKLAHOMA, USA Posts: 3,138	I AGREE WITH JIM THAT IT IS UNLIKELY THIS HAS ANY RELATION TO THE TUGEE FOR THE REASONS STATED. THEY WERE SAID TO BE PROTECTED BY KALI AND WOULD NOT BE CAUGHT IF THEY FOLLOWED HER RULES THE MAIN ONES WERE NOT TO SPILL THE BLOOD OF THEIR VICTIMS OR TO KILL WOMEN. I SUSPECT THEY MAY HAVE CARRIED OTHER WEAPONS FOR DEFENSE IF THEY WERE ATTACKED BUT DID NOT USE THEM WHEN THEY INFILTRATED A GROUP AND LULLED THEM INTO TRUSTING THEM BEFORE THEY STRUCK. A INTERESTING GROUP WHO MURDERED UNTOLD NUMBERS OF PEOPLE OVER A LONG PERIOD. THERE IS A GOOD MOVIE DEALING WITH IT (THE DECIEVERS) STARING PIERCE BRONSON, IT IS WELL DONE WITHOUT OVER DRAMATIZING OR CHANGEING THE HISTORY. I SUSPECT THERE HAVE BEEN SOME MADE BY THE CINIMA IN INDIA BUT HAVE NOT SEEN ANY, INDIANA JONES AND THE OLD 1939 GUNGA DIN MOVIE ALSO BORROWED FROM THE TUGEE BUT WERE NOT ACCURATE, BUT GOOD ENTERTAINMENT NONE THE LESS. THE WEAPON ABOVE WOULD INDEED INVOKE THE EMOTION "WHAT THE HECK IS THAT EVIL LOOKING THING" WHEN BRANDISHED BUT WOULD NOT BE A VERY GOOD WEAPON. I ASSUME THE BLADES WERE POSITIONED AS DESIRED AND THEN LOCKED IN PLACE BEFORE USE AND DID NOT TURN FREELY. THE TWO BACK FACEING BLADES COULD SERVE TO KEEP SOMEONE FROM GRABBING THE HAND AS WELL AS ACTING AS A GAURD THEY WOULD ALSO WORK WELL IF THE THING WAS THROWN AT SOME POINT IN THE FIGHT. IT IS FUN TO TRY AND THINK UP WAYS SOMETHING STRANGE LIKE THIS COULD BE USED. HERES ONE SENARIO WAVE IT AROUND UP HIGH THEN THROW IT DOWN AND PIN THE ENEMYS FOOT TO THE GROUND AND USE THE SWORD IN YOUR OTHER HAND TO FINISH UP. IT COULD BE USED FOR PARRING ALONG WITH A SWORD BUT WITH ALL THOSE BLADES YOU WOULD RUN AN INCREASED RISK OF CUTTING YOURSELF.

22nd December 2007, 05:17 AM	#10
fearn Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 1,247	I don't know that you're going to find to many "old" versions of these weapons, but I can give you some history on the deer horn knives and the mandarin duck knives, aka rooster knives. Both are used in Baguazhang (pa kua chang). The deer horn knives were the personal weapon of Dong Hai Chuan (1797-1882), founder of the system, and he passed on the weapon to many of his students. The rooster knives were the personal weapons of his youngest disciple, Liang Zhen Pu. Both weapons are well suited to the infighting style of bagua (think shredder) and were used in pairs, one in each hand. Of the two, the deer horn knives are much more widely known, but both are still practiced. So far as I know (and I'm not an expert in the system by any means), these men invented the weapons specifically to suit their fighting styles, and then passed the weapons and skills on. Basically, I'd be really, really surprised to see either of these weapons dating much before 1850, and I'd count any that pre-date 1900 to be a real find.

27th December 2007, 03:32 AM	#11
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,943	addendum: In Elgood, "Hindu Arms & Ritual", p.257, an entry noting the 'panjmukh' which is a five headed spear used by the people of Gujerat. (ref: Codrington Inventory, also found in Egerton #710).