Bali keris advice and thoughts

SidJ · 15th December 2022, 07:50 PM

Hello fellow keris enthusiasts,
I acquired this Keris. It is described as Balinese 19th century. I would be grateful for your thoughts on this one please as the dhapur is not one I have encountered before. There is no scabbard. 53.3cm

David · 15th December 2022, 08:54 PM

Ooh, that's interesting. I'm not sure i have seen exactly this dhapur before either. In Javanese terminology it would fall into the Kebo/Mahesa group, but frankly i am uncertainly if such a designation has the same meanings in Bali as it does in Jawa. Perhaps somebody else knows.
The luk at the end is of course similar to damar murub in Javanese parlance, but again, i am not sure how such a feature is seen on Balinese blades.
I wouldn't necessarily argue with the 19th century attribution. And i have to say that i am really enjoying this blade. Seems like an unusual dhapur with nicely controlled pamor and form. Wouldn't mind it at all in my own collection.

A. G. Maisey · 15th December 2022, 09:44 PM

Balinese keris with this exaggerated curl from the gonjo were supposedly worn by priests & religious scholars in Bali. This example of Sid's is a fairly mild curl, compared with some i have seen.

The gonjo on the keris shown here is a replacement, it might be legitimate, that is, it might have been placed upon the keris when the owner of the keris rose in status.

However, during the 1980's & 1990's there was a very well known m'ranggi & dealer in keris who lived in Celuk, and he had had a number of keris made in Madura that were fitted with this style of gonjo. Some of the keris he had for sale were new creations, some were older keris that had been altered, all were keris of rare, unusual or inventive forms.

I visited this gentleman a number of times, usually just to look at what he had, I found him far too expensive to deal with, and around 1990, maybe 1988, maybe 1992 or thereabouts, he had a large number of keris like this hanging from the fascia of a pendopo in his courtyard.

Sid's posted example might be real, it might be something from Celuk of 30 years ago, I certainly cannot tell from the photos, and I might not be able to tell even if I had it in my hand.

The Old Pirate was a master of his trade.

Anthony G. · 16th December 2022, 04:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by David

Ooh, that's interesting. I'm not sure i have seen exactly this dhapur before either. In Javanese terminology it would fall into the Kebo/Mahesa group, but frankly i am uncertainly if such a designation has the same meanings in Bali as it does in Jawa. Perhaps somebody else knows.
The luk at the end is of course similar to damar murub in Javanese parlance, but again, i am not sure how such a feature is seen on Balinese blades.
I wouldn't necessarily argue with the 19th century attribution. And i have to say that i am really enjoying this blade. Seems like an unusual dhapur with nicely controlled pamor and form. Wouldn't mind it at all in my own collection.

Maybe I am wrong but I could not understand the pamor color of this bilah, it does not seems to be like traditional old Balinese keris pamor. A close associate friend of mine told me usually Madura keris pamor is this kind of color tone.

Rick · 16th December 2022, 04:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Anthony G.

Maybe I am wrong but I could not understand the pamor color of this bilah, it does not seems to be like traditional old Balinese keris pamor. A close associate friend of mine told me usually Madura keris pamor is this kind of color tone.

Not to mention that the wilah has a coarse surface which I would not expect from a Bali or Lombok keris.
Yet the gonjo is of a smoother finish.

SidJ · 16th December 2022, 10:23 AM

Might be Lombok as I have one attributed to there that has a similar surface texture? If the intent was to deceive I dont know how the maker could have ignored the texture and pamor points as a reasonable novice would be aware of this. The smooth ganja and large size is a clear Bali feature.

A. G. Maisey · 16th December 2022, 10:51 AM

Sid, not everything is as cut & dried as we might like to believe.

This is a very unusual form of keris, no matter where it comes from.

The gonjo is a replacement.

Keris like this were produced to order for a Balinese dealer 30 & more years ago.

I do not know if this keris was constructed for somebody in a Balinese community or somebody in the collector community

Anything else that we might like to think or say about this keris is guesswork.

SidJ · 16th December 2022, 01:56 PM

Looks like its all guesswork to me Alan. Is this keris 30 years old? Is this keris part of the batch you refer to? Did that maker couple a smooth ganja with a rough textured Javanese type blade to add interest? Why not add a scabbard to add value? Why are there not more of these recent types not seen in the meaketplace? After 30 odd years one could reasonably expect this. Or is this on the balance of probabilities exactly what it is stated as namely a 19th century antique with unique features? What is more likely on the facts? That is the question.

David · 16th December 2022, 07:33 PM

Well Sid, all your questions are valid as well as the questioned raised by those who commented.
When i made my original remarks i was viewing this on the small screen of my cellphone. On my computer now i can see why certain aspects of this blade have raised a red flag or two. As Alan pointed out, it is clear looking at this on a larger screen that the gonjo is a replacement. Exactly when that happened is impossible to tell and as Alan pointed out, such a later addition can indeed be legitimate. I can also see why Anthony is questioning the pamor if this blade originated in Bali. Is Lombok a possible alternative? Possibly. If i am not mistaken Lombok keris ventured into more unusual dhapurs than those made in Bali.
This said i would say i still like this keris. I also still feel the pamor is fairly well controlled and the keris is an attractive one. So the question for you is do you still like the keris and find to attractive even if the origins of this blade might be as Alan described? Alan's experience with similar keris does seem to answer some of the questions this unusual blade brings up. But there are also many oddities that pop up in the keris world that are simply legitimate oddballs. When we are presented with a keris like this we need to weigh all the possibilities and come to our own conclusions which we may never be able to confirm or prove wrong. So in the end we just have to decide if it is something we truly like and if our investment in obtaining the keris was a reasonable one given all the possibilities.

A. G. Maisey · 16th December 2022, 07:54 PM

Sid, you have asked 8 questions, I will address these questions one by one

1) Is this keris 30 years old?
I do not know, see post #3

2) Is this keris part of the batch you refer to?
I do not know, see post #3

3) Did that maker couple a smooth ganja with a rough textured Javanese type blade to add interest?
I would guess that there was more than a single maker involved in the production of what we can see in your photos. There are a number of reasons why the gonjo has been replaced and it is impossible for me make a reasonable guess on why it has been replaced. See post #3.

4) Why not add a scabbard to add value?
We do not know the history of this keris, I think it would have had a scabbard at one time.

5) Why are there not more of these recent types not seen in the meaketplace?
Because not many more, if any more were made.

6) After 30 odd years one could reasonably expect this.
Not necessarily; we are dealing with a niche market and an ethnographic artefact that in its cultural context has quite specific parameters within which to function. We do not know who it was made for, nor why it was made, we do not know if it is something that was produced to function within a cultural context or if it was produced to function within a context other than its designated cultural context. See post #3.

7) Or is this on the balance of probabilities exactly what it is stated as namely a 19th century antique with unique features?
In my opinion it is not a 19th century antique. The body of the blade (wilahan) might have some age, or it might not, I cannot give a supportable opinion on the basis of a photo. The gonjo is very likely to be much more recent than the wilahan. See post #3

8) What is more likely on the facts?
What facts Sid? I cannot see any facts that I could take into even a lower court and expect somebody with no specialist knowledge to agree with. If I were to be granted the status of "expert witness" I could reasonably expect that some people would accept what I have said, and that others would not.

In summary, it is in my opinion impossible to form and support a firm opinion on the age and reason for being of this keris.

A. G. Maisey · 16th December 2022, 10:27 PM

This is a comment on Balinese keris in general, not a comment specifically related to Sid's query.

Most people with a keris interest tend to expect to see a polished finish on a keris that identifies as "Balinese". This is a reasonable expectation, but it is far from a universally correct expectation.

If we consider keris that exist within the Balinese community on Bali we will often find Javanese & other keris that are dressed as Balinese keris. So as a complete kadhutan (low Balinese) or dhuwung (high Balinese) we have a Balinese keris with a Javanese or other blade. Sometimes this blade will have a polished finish, sometimes it will not.

I have a very old Javanese keris that was the pusaka keris of a Den Pasar family, it is a small Javanese Singo Barong keris, and if the blade were to be classified as a Javanese keris it would classify as Majapahit. It is dressed in a very old Balinese Batun Poh wrongko, it has a very old Javanese ivory "raksasa" hilt, and part of a Balinese ivory selut. It is the real thing, absolutely genuine, Balinese pusaka keris. But it is not much like what most collectors would ID as Balinese.

I also have a keris that was once in the possession of the Raja of Badung, this is again a very old keris, in very old, original dress. In form it qualifies as Balinese, but it has the finish that we normally expect to see on a Javanese keris.

Many of the keris that Balinese people consider to be pusaka keris are in fact Javanese keris.

The keris style that collectors identify as the iconic Balinese keris is usually fairly large, elegantly sculpted, finely detailed, with a polished finish to the blade and high contrast material. I believe this style can usually be attributed to South Bali and usually from the 19th century.

The keris scene, on the ground in Bali & Jawa is as I remarked earlier, not quite as cut & dried as we might like to believe.

SidJ · 16th December 2022, 11:24 PM

Thanks Alan and David,
Very valid and informative points indeed. Well, it's an interesting thing one way or another and fairly easy on the eye as far as I'm concerned. It was worth trying to glean some more information on this. Thanks very much for your views.

kai · 20th December 2022, 11:13 PM

Hello Sid,

Apologies for joining the party late!

Despite handling this keris a long time ago, I can't add much to what has already been mentioned:

I'm pretty sure the gonjo got crafted on Bali or Lombok.

The pamor does resemble what can be, for example, commonly be found on keris from Madura; however, as already mentioned for the rougher surface texture, this doesn't negate a possible origin from Bali/Lombok, either!

Once you receive this keris, a peek on the pesi might allow additional insights!

This keris was exhibited & published a while ago: Follow the link given by me in post #31 of this thread:
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=21646
Check piece #16 on page 90 of the catalog in English language!

This catalog is also still available as book in both languages, I believe.

Regards,
Kai

SidJ · 26th December 2022, 01:17 AM

Thanks Kai
Im in the process of getting a copy of the catalogue. I will also need to find a Gayaman scabbard for this keris.

A. G. Maisey · 26th December 2022, 02:28 AM

Sid, this is a Balinese keris, it is 41.2cm in length = +/-16.25", that is right on the edge of being too long for Javanese, apart from which the original catalog description comments that it is accompanied by a batun poh wrongko.

So question is now what has happened to the wrongko that was with it when it was exhibited?

The second thing is this:- it needs a baton poh wrongko , not a gayaman.

SidJ · 26th December 2022, 10:23 AM

Hi Alan
Yes you're right. I meant the batun poh. Presumably this is the commonly seen rounded mouthpiece Balinese scabbard shape so should be relatively easy to find.

Best
Sid

A. G. Maisey · 26th December 2022, 10:31 AM

It might not be Sid, but who knows?

You might get lucky.

SidJ · 26th December 2022, 11:22 AM

Alan
Sadly the scabbard it was exhibited with has been lost. It's odd this has occurred given it was in a collection and had a degree of public exposure. But I expect we will never know why this has happened.

A. G. Maisey · 26th December 2022, 06:39 PM

Maybe somebody needed a Bali scabbard Sid?

Unlike Javanese keris dress, Balinese keris dress is made specifically for each keris. In Jawa you can go to a market and have a wide choice of pre-made keris dress, and most Javanese keris are made within parameters that will permit most keris blades to fit most keris scabbards.

For Balinese keris the blade is given to a tukang wrongko & he makes the scabbard to fit.

16th December 2022, 07:54 PM	#10
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,876	Sid, you have asked 8 questions, I will address these questions one by one 1) Is this keris 30 years old? I do not know, see post #3 2) Is this keris part of the batch you refer to? I do not know, see post #3 3) Did that maker couple a smooth ganja with a rough textured Javanese type blade to add interest? I would guess that there was more than a single maker involved in the production of what we can see in your photos. There are a number of reasons why the gonjo has been replaced and it is impossible for me make a reasonable guess on why it has been replaced. See post #3. 4) Why not add a scabbard to add value? We do not know the history of this keris, I think it would have had a scabbard at one time. 5) Why are there not more of these recent types not seen in the meaketplace? Because not many more, if any more were made. 6) After 30 odd years one could reasonably expect this. Not necessarily; we are dealing with a niche market and an ethnographic artefact that in its cultural context has quite specific parameters within which to function. We do not know who it was made for, nor why it was made, we do not know if it is something that was produced to function within a cultural context or if it was produced to function within a context other than its designated cultural context. See post #3. 7) Or is this on the balance of probabilities exactly what it is stated as namely a 19th century antique with unique features? In my opinion it is not a 19th century antique. The body of the blade (wilahan) might have some age, or it might not, I cannot give a supportable opinion on the basis of a photo. The gonjo is very likely to be much more recent than the wilahan. See post #3 8) What is more likely on the facts? What facts Sid? I cannot see any facts that I could take into even a lower court and expect somebody with no specialist knowledge to agree with. If I were to be granted the status of "expert witness" I could reasonably expect that some people would accept what I have said, and that others would not. In summary, it is in my opinion impossible to form and support a firm opinion on the age and reason for being of this keris. Last edited by A. G. Maisey; 16th December 2022 at 09:09 PM. Reason: grammar

15th December 2022, 07:50 PM	#1
SidJ Member Join Date: Apr 2020 Posts: 177	Bali keris advice and thoughts Hello fellow keris enthusiasts, I acquired this Keris. It is described as Balinese 19th century. I would be grateful for your thoughts on this one please as the dhapur is not one I have encountered before. There is no scabbard. 53.3cm Attached Images

15th December 2022, 08:54 PM	#2
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,113	Ooh, that's interesting. I'm not sure i have seen exactly this dhapur before either. In Javanese terminology it would fall into the Kebo/Mahesa group, but frankly i am uncertainly if such a designation has the same meanings in Bali as it does in Jawa. Perhaps somebody else knows. The luk at the end is of course similar to damar murub in Javanese parlance, but again, i am not sure how such a feature is seen on Balinese blades. I wouldn't necessarily argue with the 19th century attribution. And i have to say that i am really enjoying this blade. Seems like an unusual dhapur with nicely controlled pamor and form. Wouldn't mind it at all in my own collection.

15th December 2022, 09:44 PM	#3
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,876	Balinese keris with this exaggerated curl from the gonjo were supposedly worn by priests & religious scholars in Bali. This example of Sid's is a fairly mild curl, compared with some i have seen. The gonjo on the keris shown here is a replacement, it might be legitimate, that is, it might have been placed upon the keris when the owner of the keris rose in status. However, during the 1980's & 1990's there was a very well known m'ranggi & dealer in keris who lived in Celuk, and he had had a number of keris made in Madura that were fitted with this style of gonjo. Some of the keris he had for sale were new creations, some were older keris that had been altered, all were keris of rare, unusual or inventive forms. I visited this gentleman a number of times, usually just to look at what he had, I found him far too expensive to deal with, and around 1990, maybe 1988, maybe 1992 or thereabouts, he had a large number of keris like this hanging from the fascia of a pendopo in his courtyard. Sid's posted example might be real, it might be something from Celuk of 30 years ago, I certainly cannot tell from the photos, and I might not be able to tell even if I had it in my hand. The Old Pirate was a master of his trade.

16th December 2022, 10:23 AM	#6
SidJ Member Join Date: Apr 2020 Posts: 177	Might be Lombok as I have one attributed to there that has a similar surface texture? If the intent was to deceive I dont know how the maker could have ignored the texture and pamor points as a reasonable novice would be aware of this. The smooth ganja and large size is a clear Bali feature.

16th December 2022, 10:51 AM	#7
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,876	Sid, not everything is as cut & dried as we might like to believe. This is a very unusual form of keris, no matter where it comes from. The gonjo is a replacement. Keris like this were produced to order for a Balinese dealer 30 & more years ago. I do not know if this keris was constructed for somebody in a Balinese community or somebody in the collector community Anything else that we might like to think or say about this keris is guesswork.

16th December 2022, 01:56 PM	#8
SidJ Member Join Date: Apr 2020 Posts: 177	Looks like its all guesswork to me Alan. Is this keris 30 years old? Is this keris part of the batch you refer to? Did that maker couple a smooth ganja with a rough textured Javanese type blade to add interest? Why not add a scabbard to add value? Why are there not more of these recent types not seen in the meaketplace? After 30 odd years one could reasonably expect this. Or is this on the balance of probabilities exactly what it is stated as namely a 19th century antique with unique features? What is more likely on the facts? That is the question.

16th December 2022, 07:33 PM	#9
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,113	Well Sid, all your questions are valid as well as the questioned raised by those who commented. When i made my original remarks i was viewing this on the small screen of my cellphone. On my computer now i can see why certain aspects of this blade have raised a red flag or two. As Alan pointed out, it is clear looking at this on a larger screen that the gonjo is a replacement. Exactly when that happened is impossible to tell and as Alan pointed out, such a later addition can indeed be legitimate. I can also see why Anthony is questioning the pamor if this blade originated in Bali. Is Lombok a possible alternative? Possibly. If i am not mistaken Lombok keris ventured into more unusual dhapurs than those made in Bali. This said i would say i still like this keris. I also still feel the pamor is fairly well controlled and the keris is an attractive one. So the question for you is do you still like the keris and find to attractive even if the origins of this blade might be as Alan described? Alan's experience with similar keris does seem to answer some of the questions this unusual blade brings up. But there are also many oddities that pop up in the keris world that are simply legitimate oddballs. When we are presented with a keris like this we need to weigh all the possibilities and come to our own conclusions which we may never be able to confirm or prove wrong. So in the end we just have to decide if it is something we truly like and if our investment in obtaining the keris was a reasonable one given all the possibilities.

16th December 2022, 10:27 PM	#11
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,876	This is a comment on Balinese keris in general, not a comment specifically related to Sid's query. Most people with a keris interest tend to expect to see a polished finish on a keris that identifies as "Balinese". This is a reasonable expectation, but it is far from a universally correct expectation. If we consider keris that exist within the Balinese community on Bali we will often find Javanese & other keris that are dressed as Balinese keris. So as a complete kadhutan (low Balinese) or dhuwung (high Balinese) we have a Balinese keris with a Javanese or other blade. Sometimes this blade will have a polished finish, sometimes it will not. I have a very old Javanese keris that was the pusaka keris of a Den Pasar family, it is a small Javanese Singo Barong keris, and if the blade were to be classified as a Javanese keris it would classify as Majapahit. It is dressed in a very old Balinese Batun Poh wrongko, it has a very old Javanese ivory "raksasa" hilt, and part of a Balinese ivory selut. It is the real thing, absolutely genuine, Balinese pusaka keris. But it is not much like what most collectors would ID as Balinese. I also have a keris that was once in the possession of the Raja of Badung, this is again a very old keris, in very old, original dress. In form it qualifies as Balinese, but it has the finish that we normally expect to see on a Javanese keris. Many of the keris that Balinese people consider to be pusaka keris are in fact Javanese keris. The keris style that collectors identify as the iconic Balinese keris is usually fairly large, elegantly sculpted, finely detailed, with a polished finish to the blade and high contrast material. I believe this style can usually be attributed to South Bali and usually from the 19th century. The keris scene, on the ground in Bali & Jawa is as I remarked earlier, not quite as cut & dried as we might like to believe.

16th December 2022, 11:24 PM	#12
SidJ Member Join Date: Apr 2020 Posts: 177	Thanks Alan and David, Very valid and informative points indeed. Well, it's an interesting thing one way or another and fairly easy on the eye as far as I'm concerned. It was worth trying to glean some more information on this. Thanks very much for your views.

20th December 2022, 11:13 PM	#13
kai Member Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 3,254	Hello Sid, Apologies for joining the party late! Despite handling this keris a long time ago, I can't add much to what has already been mentioned: I'm pretty sure the gonjo got crafted on Bali or Lombok. The pamor does resemble what can be, for example, commonly be found on keris from Madura; however, as already mentioned for the rougher surface texture, this doesn't negate a possible origin from Bali/Lombok, either! Once you receive this keris, a peek on the pesi might allow additional insights! This keris was exhibited & published a while ago: Follow the link given by me in post #31 of this thread: http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=21646 Check piece #16 on page 90 of the catalog in English language! This catalog is also still available as book in both languages, I believe. Regards, Kai

26th December 2022, 01:17 AM	#14
SidJ Member Join Date: Apr 2020 Posts: 177	Thanks Kai Im in the process of getting a copy of the catalogue. I will also need to find a Gayaman scabbard for this keris.

26th December 2022, 02:28 AM	#15
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,876	Sid, this is a Balinese keris, it is 41.2cm in length = +/-16.25", that is right on the edge of being too long for Javanese, apart from which the original catalog description comments that it is accompanied by a batun poh wrongko. So question is now what has happened to the wrongko that was with it when it was exhibited? The second thing is this:- it needs a baton poh wrongko , not a gayaman.

26th December 2022, 10:23 AM	#16
SidJ Member Join Date: Apr 2020 Posts: 177	Hi Alan Yes you're right. I meant the batun poh. Presumably this is the commonly seen rounded mouthpiece Balinese scabbard shape so should be relatively easy to find. Best Sid

26th December 2022, 10:31 AM	#17
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,876	It might not be Sid, but who knows? You might get lucky.

26th December 2022, 11:22 AM	#18
SidJ Member Join Date: Apr 2020 Posts: 177	Alan Sadly the scabbard it was exhibited with has been lost. It's odd this has occurred given it was in a collection and had a degree of public exposure. But I expect we will never know why this has happened.

26th December 2022, 06:39 PM	#19
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,876	Maybe somebody needed a Bali scabbard Sid? Unlike Javanese keris dress, Balinese keris dress is made specifically for each keris. In Jawa you can go to a market and have a wide choice of pre-made keris dress, and most Javanese keris are made within parameters that will permit most keris blades to fit most keris scabbards. For Balinese keris the blade is given to a tukang wrongko & he makes the scabbard to fit.