Strange unknown knife for id

Justin · 13th November 2005, 12:16 AM

I have no clue on this one, the blade looks like it is laminated,the edge in on the concave side.About 11 inches long o/a ,the wire around the pommel and the mounts on the grip are aluminum,right now all I have is the pic from ebay later ill post some better ones,if they are needed.

Tim Simmons · 15th November 2005, 07:36 PM

Bring this up again when you have made better pictures. It is interesting that the scabbard which is surely European? and post ww2 I would think, goes so well with the Knife. Which came first the chicken or the egg? My gut feeling is somewhere like Ethiopia and surrounding areas. Tim

Tim Simmons · 15th November 2005, 07:44 PM

Just another thought, this could also have come from the Congo. Just something about the discs on the handle and the shape, also the decorative extended pommel bit. Tim

Freddy · 15th November 2005, 09:19 PM

I agree with Tim that the knife comes from Africa. I would be more inclined to think that it comes from Nigeria (or neighbouring countries).
The reason for this is the metal band between the blade and the handle. I've seen this already on knives coming from that area.

The sheath is no doubt European.

Tim Simmons · 15th November 2005, 09:54 PM

Yes West African knives do have that piece on the forte normally brass and often engraved. This one looks a little back woods to me, made away from the normal centers of manufacture. The question is where? in West Africa which could include Gabon and the Congo. Is it from the arid regions or the forrests? I am not sure it is from any of the arid areas but I do not really know, just does not fit with the other stuff I have from these regions. Tim

Justin · 16th November 2005, 02:04 AM

Thanks for the comments,Ill work on getting better pics.

I noticed that the edge of the knife , is forged a lot like the edge some khodmis have,sort of hollow ground but only about 1/8 inch in from the edge.Seems many African weapons have odd cross sections,like the 'twisted' spear heads that were discussed a few weeks ago.

Andrew · 16th November 2005, 03:51 AM

Gentlemen, I'm curious: how common is/was the use of aluminum in African weapons? Is it more common to see this material in certain regions or cultures?

I like this knife, Justin. Congrats.

Freddy · 16th November 2005, 08:58 AM

I think I already showed this one on the forum, but it's a small (ceremonial ?) axe from the Congo (Tshokwe).

The blade is made from aluminium with some engravings on it.

Iron was easily obtainable in these regions, but material like copper, aluminium, etc.... was foreign, thus expensive. Someone wanting to show his wealth did so by using these metals.

You also see it on some other African artwork, especially from the Congo. Copper nails were added to a statue to enhance its importance.

I'll show some better pics of the axe this evening.

Andrew · 16th November 2005, 03:17 PM

Thanks, Freddy.

Interesting that aluminum would be prized as a decorative metal. In post-WWII industrial cultures, it has become so common.

Is this, perhaps, a bit of "cargo cult"?

Justin · 16th November 2005, 03:40 PM

Thanks Andrew, As far as aluminum on African weapons goes, it doesnt seem to be too common but not unheard of . I also have a tebu dagger with aluminum mounts,Ill try to get pics of it up along with the unknown knife.

I didnt have much interest in African weapons when I first started collecting but as the number of African arms I have has risen they are becoming more and more interesting to me.There is an incredible amount of variation in design and workmanship,its a shame there arent more resources on these weapons.

Thats an AWESOME axe ! ,I have never seen an authentic piece with an aluminum blade before,but what you said about the aluminum being imported makes sense.

Mark · 16th November 2005, 04:01 PM

What do you think is the age of that aluminum axe? Before electolytic extraction methods were perfected (making it possible to extract aluminum from dirt, essentially), it was really considered a precious metal. I forget when that change happened -- maybe early 20th cen.? An interesting story is that the cap of the Washington monument is a little pyramid of aluminum about 18 inches high, which was a very major part of the expense of the total project, and had to be specially commissioned from the scientist was was then developing the electrolytic extraction process.

Perhaps this is either a product of that era, or the cultural value of aluminum was established by that era.

Freddy · 16th November 2005, 07:51 PM

Here is the promised photo. The decoration on this axe blade is crude. The maker even tried to sharpen the edge. Also the way it is fastened to the shaft is very crude. It looks like it was riveted to a piece of iron (?) which goes through the shaft.

I have no idea about the age of this piece. Probably it is something which was collected in Congo during the first half of the 20th century. I got it from a reputable African art dealer.

Tim Simmons · 16th November 2005, 08:01 PM

Aluminium history, world production did not really take off untill the 1920s. Look here, www.world-aluminium.org . Tim

Freddy · 16th November 2005, 08:52 PM

Here's another axe with aluminium blade (I think).

My guess is that it comes from West-Africa. Very strange blade, but the way it is set into the blade and also the decoration on the axe handle point in the direction of Mende in Sierra Leone.

total length : 37,5 cm
blade : 13,7 cm x 10,5 cm

Tim Simmons · 16th November 2005, 08:54 PM

Very, very nice!!!

Freddy · 16th November 2005, 09:11 PM

Here's a 'normal' Mende axe :

With a common iron blade and some copper decoration.

Total length : 43 cm
Axe blade : 15 cm

Tim Simmons · 16th November 2005, 09:18 PM

The geometry on the aluminium blade with the dark wood appeals to me most of all. looks like quite a special thing, I like the other one to but not as much. You got some nice stuff

Tim.

Justin · 12th December 2005, 12:28 AM

Sorry for the long delay on pics, but finally, here they are:

13th November 2005, 12:16 AM	#1
Justin Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 175	Strange unknown knife for id I have no clue on this one, the blade looks like it is laminated,the edge in on the concave side.About 11 inches long o/a ,the wire around the pommel and the mounts on the grip are aluminum,right now all I have is the pic from ebay later ill post some better ones,if they are needed. Attached Images

16th November 2005, 08:52 PM	#14
Freddy Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Sint-Amandsberg (near Ghent, Belgium) Posts: 830	another one with aluminium Here's another axe with aluminium blade (I think). My guess is that it comes from West-Africa. Very strange blade, but the way it is set into the blade and also the decoration on the axe handle point in the direction of Mende in Sierra Leone. total length : 37,5 cm blade : 13,7 cm x 10,5 cm

12th December 2005, 12:28 AM	#18
Justin Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 175	Sorry for the long delay on pics, but finally, here they are: Attached Images

15th November 2005, 07:36 PM	#2
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,807	Bring this up again when you have made better pictures. It is interesting that the scabbard which is surely European? and post ww2 I would think, goes so well with the Knife. Which came first the chicken or the egg? My gut feeling is somewhere like Ethiopia and surrounding areas. Tim

15th November 2005, 07:44 PM	#3
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,807	Just another thought, this could also have come from the Congo. Just something about the discs on the handle and the shape, also the decorative extended pommel bit. Tim

15th November 2005, 09:19 PM	#4
Freddy Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Sint-Amandsberg (near Ghent, Belgium) Posts: 830	I agree with Tim that the knife comes from Africa. I would be more inclined to think that it comes from Nigeria (or neighbouring countries). The reason for this is the metal band between the blade and the handle. I've seen this already on knives coming from that area. The sheath is no doubt European.

15th November 2005, 09:54 PM	#5
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,807	Yes West African knives do have that piece on the forte normally brass and often engraved. This one looks a little back woods to me, made away from the normal centers of manufacture. The question is where? in West Africa which could include Gabon and the Congo. Is it from the arid regions or the forrests? I am not sure it is from any of the arid areas but I do not really know, just does not fit with the other stuff I have from these regions. Tim

16th November 2005, 02:04 AM	#6
Justin Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 175	Thanks for the comments,Ill work on getting better pics. I noticed that the edge of the knife , is forged a lot like the edge some khodmis have,sort of hollow ground but only about 1/8 inch in from the edge.Seems many African weapons have odd cross sections,like the 'twisted' spear heads that were discussed a few weeks ago.

16th November 2005, 03:51 AM	#7
Andrew Member Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: USA Posts: 1,725	Gentlemen, I'm curious: how common is/was the use of aluminum in African weapons? Is it more common to see this material in certain regions or cultures? I like this knife, Justin. Congrats.

16th November 2005, 08:58 AM	#8
Freddy Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Sint-Amandsberg (near Ghent, Belgium) Posts: 830	I think I already showed this one on the forum, but it's a small (ceremonial ?) axe from the Congo (Tshokwe). The blade is made from aluminium with some engravings on it. Iron was easily obtainable in these regions, but material like copper, aluminium, etc.... was foreign, thus expensive. Someone wanting to show his wealth did so by using these metals. You also see it on some other African artwork, especially from the Congo. Copper nails were added to a statue to enhance its importance. I'll show some better pics of the axe this evening.

16th November 2005, 03:17 PM	#9
Andrew Member Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: USA Posts: 1,725	Thanks, Freddy. Interesting that aluminum would be prized as a decorative metal. In post-WWII industrial cultures, it has become so common. Is this, perhaps, a bit of "cargo cult"?

16th November 2005, 03:40 PM	#10
Justin Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 175	Thanks Andrew, As far as aluminum on African weapons goes, it doesnt seem to be too common but not unheard of . I also have a tebu dagger with aluminum mounts,Ill try to get pics of it up along with the unknown knife. I didnt have much interest in African weapons when I first started collecting but as the number of African arms I have has risen they are becoming more and more interesting to me.There is an incredible amount of variation in design and workmanship,its a shame there arent more resources on these weapons. Thats an AWESOME axe ! ,I have never seen an authentic piece with an aluminum blade before,but what you said about the aluminum being imported makes sense.

16th November 2005, 04:01 PM	#11
Mark Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 987	What do you think is the age of that aluminum axe? Before electolytic extraction methods were perfected (making it possible to extract aluminum from dirt, essentially), it was really considered a precious metal. I forget when that change happened -- maybe early 20th cen.? An interesting story is that the cap of the Washington monument is a little pyramid of aluminum about 18 inches high, which was a very major part of the expense of the total project, and had to be specially commissioned from the scientist was was then developing the electrolytic extraction process. Perhaps this is either a product of that era, or the cultural value of aluminum was established by that era.

16th November 2005, 07:51 PM	#12
Freddy Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Sint-Amandsberg (near Ghent, Belgium) Posts: 830	Here is the promised photo. The decoration on this axe blade is crude. The maker even tried to sharpen the edge. Also the way it is fastened to the shaft is very crude. It looks like it was riveted to a piece of iron (?) which goes through the shaft. I have no idea about the age of this piece. Probably it is something which was collected in Congo during the first half of the 20th century. I got it from a reputable African art dealer.

16th November 2005, 08:01 PM	#13
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,807	Aluminium history, world production did not really take off untill the 1920s. Look here, www.world-aluminium.org . Tim

16th November 2005, 08:54 PM	#15
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,807	Very, very nice!!!

16th November 2005, 09:11 PM	#16
Freddy Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Sint-Amandsberg (near Ghent, Belgium) Posts: 830	Here's a 'normal' Mende axe : With a common iron blade and some copper decoration. Total length : 43 cm Axe blade : 15 cm

16th November 2005, 09:18 PM	#17
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,807	The geometry on the aluminium blade with the dark wood appeals to me most of all. looks like quite a special thing, I like the other one to but not as much. You got some nice stuff Tim.