Thai's damar murub?

Moshah · 13th April 2010, 05:19 PM

Hi guys,

I think this keris could be Pattani's pandai saras, in damar murub form.

What do you think?

PenangsangII · 14th April 2010, 05:03 AM

very very rare form indeed for a Pattani blade..... Could you please provide a clearer close up at the pucukan especially at the first luk. Thks.

Moshah · 14th April 2010, 12:55 PM

Yeah, I've never seen this form in any pattani / peninsular blade. I've seen a bugis keris with this form, but that's the only one I had seen so far.

Damar murub is notably for javanese blades, hence the dapur is one of javanese dapurs. However there are not many javanese damar murub either...

Moshah · 14th April 2010, 01:17 PM

some more pix.

I've change the pix's orientation, initial pix surely get your neck twisted...sorry.

PenangsangII · 15th April 2010, 01:44 AM

based on the pics... I dare say this is a true blue Pattani blade.... let me know if you are bored with it......

Moshah · 15th April 2010, 03:24 AM

Pardon my knowledge in this region of keris, PenansangII, but what is the main classification of pattani blade?

Spoken of general characteristic of a patani blade, I know normally the diamond section that runs from the base of the sorsoran straight up to the edge is the easiest ticket to be claimed as a pattani piece, but is that the only characteristic?

Secondly, could we call this blade a pandai saras? Is the gandik form conforms to pandai saras?

I've also read about patani vs kelantan blade, but sadly I could not distinguish which is which. Is it possible that this blade could be a kelantanese piece as well?

Third, the dress. Is the hilt + sheath + pendokok also pattani style? Or was it north peninsula, or kelantanese?

By looking at the sheath fitments, I would say it was not the original sheath for the blade. Do you think it should be properly dressed like any given tajong would be?

Thanks in advance for any info that you could share with me. I still not bored with the blade but it could be bored with me instead

PenangsangII · 15th April 2010, 11:42 AM

sometimes its hard to tell exactly what are the characteristics of a blade to be qualified to be called "tangguh pattani", and even more difficult to be called "pandai saras". The history of kerissmith in Pattani is as vague as the great Empu called Pandai Saras. Most of the stories on the great empu was obtained from oral tradition, and sadly, most information of Pandai saras came from keris dealers and collecters.

If the story of Empu Pandai Saras, allegedly a refugee from Java during Amangkurat I (Mataram 1646-1677) was true, then we can also say that dapur pandai saras originally came from Java, and your example is a pattani blade with jawa flavor.

Palembang is another place where this type of blade might be the origin or at least the influence - and when we talk about Palembang blades, automatically Cirebon-Pajajaran influence came to mind due to proximity of these places. And a Pandai Saras without kembang kacang - might as well be the earliest pandai saras prototype that was brought through trades or even wars from West java to Palembang to Pattani. my 0.02 dollars only.

Moshah · 15th April 2010, 12:38 PM

Very well explained, PenangsangII.

You can not run away from the roots. Javanese keris making have made such a huge impact through the archipelago and therefore it's influences nourish even as far a place as patani would be. It's a pity that the keris history from this other side are not well documented, or not really documented at all.

However on the bright side, these kerises as what we called pandai saras, carita etc are still recognizable and sometimes found in such a condition that implies a well-respected care and maintenance are of the presence. Thus what we all have are the evidence and the theories, not a textbook.

Even though javanese influences are there, still the empus from this region are creative enough to come with new designs and different proportion of materials. It could be that the limited resources of the area are a factor of this, but still I think the material used in patani kerises are of good, comparable quality. Thus I learned to recognize pandai saras or any other patani keris from it's blade materials.

What limits me is palembang blades, which sometimes could exists with similar materials. It can get really confusing sometimes.

Anyway, thanks for your concise elaboration of the pandai saras, I learned new things today.

PenangsangII · 16th April 2010, 03:12 AM

Thks Moshah, I learned new things too.... and your pattani hurubing dhilah is one of a kind - the first time I saw coming from the northern Peninsula...

Unfortunately, this discussion is only 2 ways. I was kind of hoping others who have more experience, especially in Pattani kerises, would be joining this discussion.

Moshah · 16th April 2010, 11:14 AM

Agree, penangsangII. So far i've never seen a urubing dillah appears in pandai saras....

I also know there are few forum members whose not only possess extensive knowledge about pattani kerises, but also have high-standard pattani pieces in their collection.

The input from them would be very helpful, since it could be very informative if we can learn more out of it. Not only about the blade's origin, but also about this particular dapur.

Initially, I think it was a palembang piece but the more I look, the more it suggests pattani to me.

Anyway, was the hilt and sheath is also pattani?

13th April 2010, 05:19 PM	#1
Moshah Member Join Date: Oct 2009 Posts: 171	Pattani's damar murub? Hi guys, I think this keris could be Pattani's pandai saras, in damar murub form. What do you think? Attached Images Last edited by Moshah; 14th April 2010 at 03:05 PM.

14th April 2010, 12:55 PM	#3
Moshah Member Join Date: Oct 2009 Posts: 171	Yeah, I've never seen this form in any pattani / peninsular blade. I've seen a bugis keris with this form, but that's the only one I had seen so far. Damar murub is notably for javanese blades, hence the dapur is one of javanese dapurs. However there are not many javanese damar murub either... Last edited by Moshah; 14th April 2010 at 01:12 PM.

14th April 2010, 01:17 PM	#4
Moshah Member Join Date: Oct 2009 Posts: 171	some more pix. I've change the pix's orientation, initial pix surely get your neck twisted...sorry. Attached Images Last edited by Moshah; 14th April 2010 at 03:03 PM.

16th April 2010, 11:14 AM	#10
Moshah Member Join Date: Oct 2009 Posts: 171	Agree, penangsangII. So far i've never seen a urubing dillah appears in pandai saras.... I also know there are few forum members whose not only possess extensive knowledge about pattani kerises, but also have high-standard pattani pieces in their collection. The input from them would be very helpful, since it could be very informative if we can learn more out of it. Not only about the blade's origin, but also about this particular dapur. Initially, I think it was a palembang piece but the more I look, the more it suggests pattani to me. Anyway, was the hilt and sheath is also pattani? Last edited by Moshah; 16th April 2010 at 11:24 AM.

14th April 2010, 05:03 AM	#2
PenangsangII Member Join Date: Jun 2007 Posts: 401	very very rare form indeed for a Pattani blade..... Could you please provide a clearer close up at the pucukan especially at the first luk. Thks.

15th April 2010, 01:44 AM	#5
PenangsangII Member Join Date: Jun 2007 Posts: 401	based on the pics... I dare say this is a true blue Pattani blade.... let me know if you are bored with it......

15th April 2010, 03:24 AM	#6
Moshah Member Join Date: Oct 2009 Posts: 171	Pardon my knowledge in this region of keris, PenansangII, but what is the main classification of pattani blade? Spoken of general characteristic of a patani blade, I know normally the diamond section that runs from the base of the sorsoran straight up to the edge is the easiest ticket to be claimed as a pattani piece, but is that the only characteristic? Secondly, could we call this blade a pandai saras? Is the gandik form conforms to pandai saras? I've also read about patani vs kelantan blade, but sadly I could not distinguish which is which. Is it possible that this blade could be a kelantanese piece as well? Third, the dress. Is the hilt + sheath + pendokok also pattani style? Or was it north peninsula, or kelantanese? By looking at the sheath fitments, I would say it was not the original sheath for the blade. Do you think it should be properly dressed like any given tajong would be? Thanks in advance for any info that you could share with me. I still not bored with the blade but it could be bored with me instead

15th April 2010, 11:42 AM	#7
PenangsangII Member Join Date: Jun 2007 Posts: 401	sometimes its hard to tell exactly what are the characteristics of a blade to be qualified to be called "tangguh pattani", and even more difficult to be called "pandai saras". The history of kerissmith in Pattani is as vague as the great Empu called Pandai Saras. Most of the stories on the great empu was obtained from oral tradition, and sadly, most information of Pandai saras came from keris dealers and collecters. If the story of Empu Pandai Saras, allegedly a refugee from Java during Amangkurat I (Mataram 1646-1677) was true, then we can also say that dapur pandai saras originally came from Java, and your example is a pattani blade with jawa flavor. Palembang is another place where this type of blade might be the origin or at least the influence - and when we talk about Palembang blades, automatically Cirebon-Pajajaran influence came to mind due to proximity of these places. And a Pandai Saras without kembang kacang - might as well be the earliest pandai saras prototype that was brought through trades or even wars from West java to Palembang to Pattani. my 0.02 dollars only.

15th April 2010, 12:38 PM	#8
Moshah Member Join Date: Oct 2009 Posts: 171	Very well explained, PenangsangII. You can not run away from the roots. Javanese keris making have made such a huge impact through the archipelago and therefore it's influences nourish even as far a place as patani would be. It's a pity that the keris history from this other side are not well documented, or not really documented at all. However on the bright side, these kerises as what we called pandai saras, carita etc are still recognizable and sometimes found in such a condition that implies a well-respected care and maintenance are of the presence. Thus what we all have are the evidence and the theories, not a textbook. Even though javanese influences are there, still the empus from this region are creative enough to come with new designs and different proportion of materials. It could be that the limited resources of the area are a factor of this, but still I think the material used in patani kerises are of good, comparable quality. Thus I learned to recognize pandai saras or any other patani keris from it's blade materials. What limits me is palembang blades, which sometimes could exists with similar materials. It can get really confusing sometimes. Anyway, thanks for your concise elaboration of the pandai saras, I learned new things today.

16th April 2010, 03:12 AM	#9
PenangsangII Member Join Date: Jun 2007 Posts: 401	Thks Moshah, I learned new things too.... and your pattani hurubing dhilah is one of a kind - the first time I saw coming from the northern Peninsula... Unfortunately, this discussion is only 2 ways. I was kind of hoping others who have more experience, especially in Pattani kerises, would be joining this discussion.