kulah khud for comment

Valjhun · 6th April 2006, 12:42 PM

Guys, i was just wondering why we discuss blades all the time? 99,9999% of all posts is about various but still blades

. No guns, no rifles, no fittings, no shields, no other accesories... Is beginning to be a little dull...

Well, lets hear your comments about a kulah khud. From the realisation of the mail I would say that it is a pretty new thing, but it is much less decorated that the late 19th century indian examples and it is definetly not a quajar persia, wich were predominantly engraved/etched for what I know...

I feel a little confused by thatone...

What do you think?

Battara · 6th April 2006, 10:38 PM

A wonderful and complete piece. Persian? Nice to have the silver koftgari intact. All the chain maille seems intact as well. We have discussed shields and guns on this forum as well......OO!OO! - A BLADE NEXT TO THE KULA KHUD!

Valjhun · 7th April 2006, 06:51 PM

Thank you verry much, Battara. Anyone else who'd like to share his knowledge? (sensei?)

Aqtai · 7th April 2006, 07:27 PM

Congratulations Valjhun, it is certainly a very attractive piece, with all the bits present, i.e. the spike, the nasal bar, the plume holders, the mail camail etc, often one or more of these is missing or damaged.

My guess from the shape, the length of the mail camail and style of decoration is that it is Indian, mid to late 19th century. As to which part of India though i have absolutely no idea. India had many regions with many different local styles of decoration. B.I. might be the man to ask where Indian armour is concerned.

My guess is that the mail is unrivetted, am I right?

I would love to own one of these babies BTW, but with a wife, 3 kids and a mortgage that is a plan for the distant future. I am green with envy.

ariel · 8th April 2006, 03:46 AM

I like them and would love to have one, but I am afraid my wife might insist on me putting it on for a family album. No sense embarrassing one's great-grandchildren.

Rick · 8th April 2006, 04:15 AM

There is a picture I would pay to see Ariel .

I'm sorry we are boring you Valjhun .............

B.I · 8th April 2006, 12:50 PM

hi,
its a nice a decorative helmet. i strongly feel the date is late (late 20thC). the decoration is nice, and found on contempory jambiyas made in india for export.
there are a few types of later helmet, and of them all this is the most decorative and 'authentic' looking. if you consider that the majority of 19thC helmets (both indian and persian) were made as decorative items and not to be worn, then your helmet has the same merit in any collection.
would be interested in seeing images of this -

Aqtai · 9th April 2006, 12:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by B.I

hi,
its a nice a decorative helmet. i strongly feel the date is late (late 20thC). the decoration is nice, and found on contempory jambiyas made in india for export.
there are a few types of later helmet, and of them all this is the most decorative and 'authentic' looking. if you consider that the majority of 19thC helmets (both indian and persian) were made as decorative items and not to be worn, then your helmet has the same merit in any collection.
would be interested in seeing images of this -

That possibility didn't even cross my mind. I am aware that reproductions/replicas of kulah khuds are made in India, but the quality of the ones I have seen on the internet is quite poor, by contrast Valjhun's new helmet seems very well made, with rather tasteful decoration.

I suppose the reason I didn't consider that possibility is because a- the camail looks rusted and b- the bowl looks like it has a patina.

Valjhun · 9th April 2006, 06:50 PM

Well... It is not mine yet, and I think that will not be mine

Sorry B.I., I recived thoose photos by mail, I cannot photo that thing you're pointing.

Can anybody post pictures of a genuine 18 century (or older) kulah or turkish helmet?

Thanks!

Aqtai · 9th April 2006, 10:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Valjhun

Well... It is not mine yet, and I think that will not be mine

Sorry B.I., I recived thoose photos by mail, I cannot photo that thing you're pointing.

Can anybody post pictures of a genuine 18 century (or older) kulah or turkish helmet?

Thanks!

These are from H. R. Robinson's "Oriental Armour":

This is from David Alexander's "THE ARTS OF WAR. Arms and Armour of the 7th to 19th centuries (The Nasser D. Khalili Collection of Islamic Art, VOL XXI)":
http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y11...n_19th_c_1.jpg

I can't remember the title of this book, it's Polish though:
http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y11.../Separs65B.jpg
http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y11...SeparmailA.jpg

These are my photos, the helmets are 18th century Iranian and are in the Royal Armouries, Leeds:
http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y11...ina_RA_013.jpg
http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y11...hud_RA_030.jpg

This helmet is Indian and is in the V&A Museum, London:
http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y11...Top_18th_C.jpg

Also check out this:
http://www.oriental-arms.com/search....&s.x=10&s.y=11

domayeux · 11th April 2006, 01:51 AM

Hi
just to put in comparison

I believe that one really Kadjar, not only because is mine

I'm using it as "avatar", but it's not only a picture

Rick · 11th April 2006, 03:29 AM

Are you not also the member "Dom" ?
You have a private message .
I strongly suggest you read it .

B.I · 11th April 2006, 09:59 AM

hi Valjhun,
aqtai has shown a good overall selection of helmets, but i think you need to choose the culture that is most appealing to you. finding any helmet (either persian or indian) of the 18thC or before is extremely hard, and very expensive. 19thC helmets were made on mass as they were mainly decorative pieces for an export market (the military raj bringing home 'trophies'). it is possible of course to find earlier examples, but definately not easy. there is a distinct difference between persian and indian and each suits a different taste.

Lee · 11th April 2006, 12:46 PM

Received by e-mail from forum lurker Steve:

I am not a member, but came to the "Kulah Khud" Helmet, and use to have one almost like it. An archeologist from Oklahoma, thought this type of Helmet was from the Moors, or Turkish, dating back to 1100 or 1200 AD. ?? My Helmet was really close to this one. Except my Helmet was all engraved on top, with silver enlay. It was also rusted from being buried. And the chain mail was still in tact. I hope this has been a little help. Thanks

B.I · 11th April 2006, 04:49 PM

hi,
it would be great if steve could post his helmet on here to discuss (and stop lurking and join in

)
i am afraid i have met my fair share of museum curators, heads of departments, cataloguers and archeologists - all of whom are extremely passionate about what they do and willing to help in any way they can whether the particular piece falls into their expertise or not. however, this can sometimes be very misleading.
i still stick to my initial opinion, but would love to see steves helmet and open up the discussion (even if via lee with steve remaining in the shadows

)

Aqtai · 11th April 2006, 08:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by domayeux

Hi
just to put in comparison

I believe that one really Kadjar, not only because is mine

I'm using it as "avatar", but it's not only a picture

Dom, that is a gorgeous helmet, I'm feeling quite envious now.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lee

Received by e-mail from forum lurker Steve:

I am not a member, but came to the "Kulah Khud" Helmet, and use to have one almost like it. An archeologist from Oklahoma, thought this type of Helmet was from the Moors, or Turkish, dating back to 1100 or 1200 AD. ?? My Helmet was really close to this one. Except my Helmet was all engraved on top, with silver enlay. It was also rusted from being buried. And the chain mail was still in tact. I hope this has been a little help. Thanks

That is interesting Lee, I have few "buts" though.

If those dates are right that is one of the oldest "kulah khud" type helmets I have ever heard of. As far as I know the earliest "kulah khuds" date from the early 16th century AD. It's possible that Steve means 1100 or 1200 AH or Hijri, which would make that helmet about 200-300 years old which is far more plausible.

With regards to the provenance, the kulah khud style is of Iranian origin although it was also used in India and the Caucasus, in the 15th, 16th and early 17th centuries the Ottoman Turks and Mamluks of Egypt (as well as the Russians and Poles) used chichak helmets. In the late 17th century though the Ottomans do seem to have abandonned the chichak and adopted the kulah khud. BTW in the 15th century a variant of the chichak without the peak (brow guard) was also used in Iran and India.

By Moorish do you mean North African or Andalucian? The reason I ask is because I know nothing about North African armour, but I do know that Andalucian Arabs used European style helmets like the sallet and celata (barbute). There is a very fine example of a Moorish sallet on theMetropolitan Musem website:
http://www.metmuseum.org/Works_of_Ar...&item=1983.413

B.I · 11th April 2006, 10:00 PM

hi aqtai,
i wouldnt take the archaeologists comment too seriously until an image is shown. i feel there is a strong possibility of generic terms being used (as in 'saracenic' used throughout 19th/20thC for anything oriental).
both moor and turkish are loose forms of 'saracenic' and so are a basic descriptive term for anything non-european. i may be doing him an injustice, and he may well be right. but, as you know a 11th/12thC 'islamic' helmet from either north africa, turkic lands or andalucia would look nothing like the post's original kulah khud.
i do hope the said helmet is shown for us to discuss.
btw, that helmet from the met (nasrid) caused much controversy when it was purchased. not sure the jury is quite out on it as yet.

6th April 2006, 12:42 PM	#1
Valjhun Member Join Date: Dec 2005 Posts: 692	kulah khud for comment Guys, i was just wondering why we discuss blades all the time? 99,9999% of all posts is about various but still blades . No guns, no rifles, no fittings, no shields, no other accesories... Is beginning to be a little dull... Well, lets hear your comments about a kulah khud. From the realisation of the mail I would say that it is a pretty new thing, but it is much less decorated that the late 19th century indian examples and it is definetly not a quajar persia, wich were predominantly engraved/etched for what I know... I feel a little confused by thatone... What do you think? Attached Images

7th April 2006, 07:27 PM	#4
Aqtai Member Join Date: May 2005 Location: Merseyside, UK Posts: 222	Congratulations Valjhun, it is certainly a very attractive piece, with all the bits present, i.e. the spike, the nasal bar, the plume holders, the mail camail etc, often one or more of these is missing or damaged. My guess from the shape, the length of the mail camail and style of decoration is that it is Indian, mid to late 19th century. As to which part of India though i have absolutely no idea. India had many regions with many different local styles of decoration. B.I. might be the man to ask where Indian armour is concerned. My guess is that the mail is unrivetted, am I right? I would love to own one of these babies BTW, but with a wife, 3 kids and a mortgage that is a plan for the distant future. I am green with envy. Last edited by Aqtai; 8th April 2006 at 03:01 PM.

8th April 2006, 12:50 PM	#7
B.I Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 485	hi, its a nice a decorative helmet. i strongly feel the date is late (late 20thC). the decoration is nice, and found on contempory jambiyas made in india for export. there are a few types of later helmet, and of them all this is the most decorative and 'authentic' looking. if you consider that the majority of 19thC helmets (both indian and persian) were made as decorative items and not to be worn, then your helmet has the same merit in any collection. would be interested in seeing images of this - Attached Images

11th April 2006, 01:51 AM	#11
domayeux Member Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: France/Egypt Posts: 1	Hi just to put in comparison I believe that one really Kadjar, not only because is mine I'm using it as "avatar", but it's not only a picture Attached Images

11th April 2006, 03:29 AM	#12
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,293	Domayeux Are you not also the member "Dom" ? You have a private message . I strongly suggest you read it .

6th April 2006, 10:38 PM	#2
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,226	A wonderful and complete piece. Persian? Nice to have the silver koftgari intact. All the chain maille seems intact as well. We have discussed shields and guns on this forum as well......OO!OO! - A BLADE NEXT TO THE KULA KHUD!

7th April 2006, 06:51 PM	#3
Valjhun Member Join Date: Dec 2005 Posts: 692	Thank you verry much, Battara. Anyone else who'd like to share his knowledge? (sensei?)

8th April 2006, 03:46 AM	#5
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	I like them and would love to have one, but I am afraid my wife might insist on me putting it on for a family album. No sense embarrassing one's great-grandchildren.

8th April 2006, 04:15 AM	#6
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,293	There is a picture I would pay to see Ariel . I'm sorry we are boring you Valjhun .............

9th April 2006, 06:50 PM	#9
Valjhun Member Join Date: Dec 2005 Posts: 692	Well... It is not mine yet, and I think that will not be mine Sorry B.I., I recived thoose photos by mail, I cannot photo that thing you're pointing. Can anybody post pictures of a genuine 18 century (or older) kulah or turkish helmet? Thanks!

11th April 2006, 09:59 AM	#13
B.I Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 485	hi Valjhun, aqtai has shown a good overall selection of helmets, but i think you need to choose the culture that is most appealing to you. finding any helmet (either persian or indian) of the 18thC or before is extremely hard, and very expensive. 19thC helmets were made on mass as they were mainly decorative pieces for an export market (the military raj bringing home 'trophies'). it is possible of course to find earlier examples, but definately not easy. there is a distinct difference between persian and indian and each suits a different taste.

11th April 2006, 12:46 PM	#14
Lee EAAF Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Upstate New York, USA Posts: 914	Received by e-mail from forum lurker Steve: I am not a member, but came to the "Kulah Khud" Helmet, and use to have one almost like it. An archeologist from Oklahoma, thought this type of Helmet was from the Moors, or Turkish, dating back to 1100 or 1200 AD. ?? My Helmet was really close to this one. Except my Helmet was all engraved on top, with silver enlay. It was also rusted from being buried. And the chain mail was still in tact. I hope this has been a little help. Thanks

11th April 2006, 04:49 PM	#15
B.I Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 485	hi, it would be great if steve could post his helmet on here to discuss (and stop lurking and join in ) i am afraid i have met my fair share of museum curators, heads of departments, cataloguers and archeologists - all of whom are extremely passionate about what they do and willing to help in any way they can whether the particular piece falls into their expertise or not. however, this can sometimes be very misleading. i still stick to my initial opinion, but would love to see steves helmet and open up the discussion (even if via lee with steve remaining in the shadows )

11th April 2006, 10:00 PM	#17
B.I Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 485	hi aqtai, i wouldnt take the archaeologists comment too seriously until an image is shown. i feel there is a strong possibility of generic terms being used (as in 'saracenic' used throughout 19th/20thC for anything oriental). both moor and turkish are loose forms of 'saracenic' and so are a basic descriptive term for anything non-european. i may be doing him an injustice, and he may well be right. but, as you know a 11th/12thC 'islamic' helmet from either north africa, turkic lands or andalucia would look nothing like the post's original kulah khud. i do hope the said helmet is shown for us to discuss. btw, that helmet from the met (nasrid) caused much controversy when it was purchased. not sure the jury is quite out on it as yet.