Help to identify these unusual markings.

CutlassCollector · 18th July 2017, 11:38 PM

Hi can anyone help identify these markings.

There are two stamps an M surmounted by a crown and a B surmounted by a crown, both in ovals. These probably indicate that the axe was made in France but for which country?
There is a large crown with initials below and a grappling hook possibly signifying a navy.

The markings are on the top of a boarding axe.

Any thoughts greatly appreciated.
Regards, CC.

CSinTX · 19th July 2017, 02:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CutlassCollector

There is a large crown with initials below

That stamp looks British to me.

corrado26 · 19th July 2017, 11:44 AM

There is a bigger marking with a ligated "FR" under a crown. This is IMHO the mark of the "Fabricca Reale di Napoli", the Royal Factory of Naples in Italy.
Regards
corrado26

corrado26 · 19th July 2017, 12:04 PM

The marking "B" could be a controlmark of Michele Battista who worked as "Capo Maestro" in the factory of Naples together between 1770 and 1780 with G. Morelli, whose mark might be the "M".
corrado26

CutlassCollector · 19th July 2017, 06:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CSinTX

That stamp looks British to me.

I see what you mean the script is close to what is used to indicate British kings and queens but I don't think this is British.

Regards, CC

CutlassCollector · 19th July 2017, 06:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by corrado26

The marking "B" could be a controlmark of Michele Battista who worked as "Capo Maestro" in the factory of Naples together between 1770 and 1780 with G. Morelli, whose mark might be the "M".
corrado26

Good thought, Corrado, and I have had a look in that direction but have not found much yet to match the crown or more on the control marks. Do you have any links to guide me further?

Regards, CC

corrado26 · 19th July 2017, 07:31 PM

Don't forget: Links can never replace books! Have a look in the "NEUE STÖCKEL vol. 1-3.
corrado26

CutlassCollector · 19th July 2017, 08:04 PM

Yes Corrado books are always best but I doubt there is much about boarding axes in NEUE STÖCKEL vol. 1-3 !
I was not sure if you meant that the crown was definitely of the Fabricca Reale di Napoli. Is it what appears on firearms manufactured there?

The owner of the axe has supplied a drawing tracing the letters as best they can see. Either R S or R F, is their best guess. The four marks are all contained within an area of approx 17mm square so they are all small.

Any thoughts anyone on a crown over RS or RF?

Regards, CC

Ibrahiim al Balooshi · 21st July 2017, 01:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CutlassCollector

Hi can anyone help identify these markings.

There are two stamps an M surmounted by a crown and a B surmounted by a crown, both in ovals. These probably indicate that the axe was made in France but for which country?
There is a large crown with initials below and a grappling hook possibly signifying a navy.

The markings are on the top of a boarding axe.

Any thoughts greatly appreciated.
Regards, CC.

Please see http://www.boardingaxe.com/notboardingaxes.html

CutlassCollector · 21st July 2017, 01:19 PM

Hi Ibrahiim,

Thanks for that link to my own website haha!
I think it is a boarding axe but I could be wrong as it is unusual for a humble axe to be so well marked.
Do you have any specific reason for thinking it's another type of axe?

This is where I am so far.

If Corrado is right, and I hope he is, that gives me not only a state but a date as well.

But I also have a match for a crowned M and B at Klingenthal around 1860 when they were producing weapons for private purchase and possibly other states.
Also as far as I can find on the web the markings for Fabricca Reale di Napoli generally show as FR not RF.

Any help greatly appreciated!

Regards, CC

corrado26 · 21st July 2017, 03:45 PM

Here are the marks used at the Klingenthal arms factory
corrado26

fernando · 21st July 2017, 04:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CutlassCollector

... I think it is a boarding axe but I could be wrong as it is unusual for a humble axe to be so well marked....

I would be more amazed with the fact that, its head looking like the real thing, has no langets fixing it to the handle ... or is this a common feature, CC ?

.

CutlassCollector · 21st July 2017, 05:08 PM

Many thanks Corrado.
The only match for a crowned M and B is later on in the 1860's and these records are not so reliable as when Klingenthal was producing for the government.
Do you have pictures of the B and M stamps and the crown for Fabricca Reale di Napoli, then I could compare?

Regards CC

CutlassCollector · 21st July 2017, 05:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fernando

I would be more amazed with the fact that, its head looking like the real thing, has no langets fixing it to the handle ... or is this a common feature, CC ?

.

Hi Fernando,

Yes you are absolutely right, langets would be very much normal for a boarding axe. The owner - a museum in the US - are sure it is a replacement handle and I think the langets are just missing.

I have not yet been able to identify this type of axe. I know of five of this style and they are always described as French but I have always had doubts about this.

Of the two I have measurements for: the blade to point is 10 ¼ and 10 ¾ inches and blade tip to tip 6 ¼ and 5 ¾ respectively.
They all have in common the wide head with very long down curving spike, big crescent shaped blade, short inset langets with rounded heads where they protrude and long handles.
The handle on two (I think with original handles) is round in the lower part but is shaped into 4 sided with 4 facets at the top – this allows the langets to be inset into a flat surface.
Only one held by a collector in Maine has any marking and that is a barely visible anchor.

I'm hoping that the markings on this one may lead to a pattern for a particular State.

Regards, CC

fernando · 21st July 2017, 05:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CutlassCollector

...The owner - a museum in the US - are sure it is a replacement handle and I think the langets are just missing...

I thought of that; even originally suggested it in my post but then ... i hesitated

CutlassCollector · 21st July 2017, 05:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fernando

I thought of that; even originally suggested it in my post but then ... i hesitated

I forgot to say Capt. Mark found a very similar one a few weeks ago - remember this:

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=22838

The owner sent me more pictures and it has the inset short langets, so I think it has the original handle but the spike is longer and more curved.

Regards CC

Ibrahiim al Balooshi · 22nd July 2017, 04:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CutlassCollector

Hi Ibrahiim,

Thanks for that link to my own website haha!
I think it is a boarding axe but I could be wrong as it is unusual for a humble axe to be so well marked.
Do you have any specific reason for thinking it's another type of axe?

This is where I am so far.

If Corrado is right, and I hope he is, that gives me not only a state but a date as well.

But I also have a match for a crowned M and B at Klingenthal around 1860 when they were producing weapons for private purchase and possibly other states.
Also as far as I can find on the web the markings for Fabricca Reale di Napoli generally show as FR not RF.

Any help greatly appreciated!

Regards, CC

And I have to say what a well laid out web page it is!!!!

CutlassCollector · 24th July 2017, 08:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ibrahiim al Balooshi

And I have to say what a well laid out web page it is!!!!

Thank you Ibrahiim!

CutlassCollector · 24th July 2017, 08:21 PM

Corrado,

Please may I ask your help again.
I have been looking hard and I can find examples of an R or an R and F entwined beneath a crown indicating manufacturer at Fabricca Reale di Napoli.

This is the link - http://www.klingenthal.fr/marquages_coulaux.htm - to the stamps of the Klingenthal inspectors after the loss of the government contracts - it is stated as not so accurate as the government records. There is a crowned B and a crowned M that may have been working together around 1850/1860 - the dates are not precise. The M has a three point crown similar to the one shown on the axe. I would like to discount these to be certain that the axe was made in Naples.

Does your copy of the NEUE STÖCKEL show images of the stamps for that I could use for comparison?

Regards CC.

corrado26 · 25th July 2017, 12:32 PM

From the very unclear foto that you have shown at the beginning of this post I thought that this stamp could be the sign "FR" of the "Fabricca Reale di Napoli". But the bigger foto showed that the mark shows the letter RS or RF. This and the crown above the letters cannot be the mark od Naples factory.

corrado26

CutlassCollector · 25th July 2017, 01:06 PM

Hi Corrado,

Many thanks for that.

Regards, CC

CutlassCollector · 27th July 2017, 08:50 PM

Success!
A collector on a sister forum posted a link to this gladius type sword with identical markings.

The larger crown over the RI indicates Regno d'Italia/ Royaume d'Italie. This indicates the Kingdom of Italy which was set up by Napoleon who made himself the king. It only existed as a state from 1805 to 1814. So it dates the axe nicely.

Less definite:
The axe was probably made by the armourer Paolo Landi which was a private company manufacturing arms for the state, in Brescia (which still has an arms industry today - including Berretta), east of Milan.
The inspector's marks of the M and B under a crown are associated with this firm at this time.
During this period they made weapons to the French pattern and there are examples of cavalry sabres, infantry briquettes and even sapper axes that are almost identical to those made in France.

According to Wiki roughly 200,000 troops from the Kingdom of Italy fought in Napoleon’s army during that decade.

So a French axe made in Italy or an Italian axe - this remains to be decided.
Considering the above manufacture of French type swords, it would tend to indicate the former, but on the other hand the anchor of the French naval acceptance is well known and the grapnel type shown on this axe is very different from that.

Regards, CC

corrado26 · 28th July 2017, 02:07 PM

Thanks a lot, very interesting !
corrado26

CutlassCollector · 30th July 2017, 05:21 PM

Thanks Corrado and thank you for your help. It certainly pointed me to the right part of the world and gave me a tour of some very spectacular pistols.

I'm still looking for any connection to the grappling hook type anchor - it is so different from the French that I think it may be connected to pre-Italy naval forces possibly from Sardinia-Piedmont, the Two Sicilies or even the Republic of Venice. Anyone have any Italian naval swords or cutlasses?

Any help greatly appreciated.
Regards, CC

18th July 2017, 11:38 PM	#1
CutlassCollector Member Join Date: Jan 2013 Location: Scotland Posts: 331	Help to identify these unusual markings. Hi can anyone help identify these markings. There are two stamps an M surmounted by a crown and a B surmounted by a crown, both in ovals. These probably indicate that the axe was made in France but for which country? There is a large crown with initials below and a grappling hook possibly signifying a navy. The markings are on the top of a boarding axe. Any thoughts greatly appreciated. Regards, CC. Attached Images

19th July 2017, 08:04 PM	#8
CutlassCollector Member Join Date: Jan 2013 Location: Scotland Posts: 331	Yes Corrado books are always best but I doubt there is much about boarding axes in NEUE STÖCKEL vol. 1-3 ! I was not sure if you meant that the crown was definitely of the Fabricca Reale di Napoli. Is it what appears on firearms manufactured there? The owner of the axe has supplied a drawing tracing the letters as best they can see. Either R S or R F, is their best guess. The four marks are all contained within an area of approx 17mm square so they are all small. Any thoughts anyone on a crown over RS or RF? Regards, CC Attached Images Last edited by CutlassCollector; 19th July 2017 at 08:15 PM.

21st July 2017, 03:45 PM	#11
corrado26 Member Join Date: Dec 2014 Location: Black Forest, Germany Posts: 1,207	Here are the marks used at the Klingenthal arms factory corrado26 Attached Images

25th July 2017, 12:32 PM	#20
corrado26 Member Join Date: Dec 2014 Location: Black Forest, Germany Posts: 1,207	From the very unclear foto that you have shown at the beginning of this post I thought that this stamp could be the sign "FR" of the "Fabricca Reale di Napoli". But the bigger foto showed that the mark shows the letter RS or RF. This and the crown above the letters cannot be the mark od Naples factory. corrado26 Attached Images

27th July 2017, 08:50 PM	#22
CutlassCollector Member Join Date: Jan 2013 Location: Scotland Posts: 331	Success! A collector on a sister forum posted a link to this gladius type sword with identical markings. The larger crown over the RI indicates Regno d'Italia/ Royaume d'Italie. This indicates the Kingdom of Italy which was set up by Napoleon who made himself the king. It only existed as a state from 1805 to 1814. So it dates the axe nicely. Less definite: The axe was probably made by the armourer Paolo Landi which was a private company manufacturing arms for the state, in Brescia (which still has an arms industry today - including Berretta), east of Milan. The inspector's marks of the M and B under a crown are associated with this firm at this time. During this period they made weapons to the French pattern and there are examples of cavalry sabres, infantry briquettes and even sapper axes that are almost identical to those made in France. According to Wiki roughly 200,000 troops from the Kingdom of Italy fought in Napoleon’s army during that decade. So a French axe made in Italy or an Italian axe - this remains to be decided. Considering the above manufacture of French type swords, it would tend to indicate the former, but on the other hand the anchor of the French naval acceptance is well known and the grapnel type shown on this axe is very different from that. Regards, CC Attached Images

19th July 2017, 11:44 AM	#3
corrado26 Member Join Date: Dec 2014 Location: Black Forest, Germany Posts: 1,207	There is a bigger marking with a ligated "FR" under a crown. This is IMHO the mark of the "*Fabricca Reale di Napoli*", the Royal Factory of Naples in Italy. Regards corrado26

19th July 2017, 12:04 PM	#4
corrado26 Member Join Date: Dec 2014 Location: Black Forest, Germany Posts: 1,207	The marking "B" could be a controlmark of Michele Battista who worked as "Capo Maestro" in the factory of Naples together between 1770 and 1780 with G. Morelli, whose mark might be the "M". corrado26

19th July 2017, 07:31 PM	#7
corrado26 Member Join Date: Dec 2014 Location: Black Forest, Germany Posts: 1,207	Don't forget: Links can never replace books! Have a look in the "NEUE STÖCKEL vol. 1-3. corrado26

21st July 2017, 01:19 PM	#10
CutlassCollector Member Join Date: Jan 2013 Location: Scotland Posts: 331	Hi Ibrahiim, Thanks for that link to my own website haha! I think it is a boarding axe but I could be wrong as it is unusual for a humble axe to be so well marked. Do you have any specific reason for thinking it's another type of axe? This is where I am so far. If Corrado is right, and I hope he is, that gives me not only a state but a date as well. But I also have a match for a crowned M and B at Klingenthal around 1860 when they were producing weapons for private purchase and possibly other states. Also as far as I can find on the web the markings for Fabricca Reale di Napoli generally show as FR not RF. Any help greatly appreciated! Regards, CC

21st July 2017, 05:08 PM	#13
CutlassCollector Member Join Date: Jan 2013 Location: Scotland Posts: 331	Many thanks Corrado. The only match for a crowned M and B is later on in the 1860's and these records are not so reliable as when Klingenthal was producing for the government. Do you have pictures of the B and M stamps and the crown for Fabricca Reale di Napoli, then I could compare? Regards CC

24th July 2017, 08:21 PM	#19
CutlassCollector Member Join Date: Jan 2013 Location: Scotland Posts: 331	Corrado, Please may I ask your help again. I have been looking hard and I can find examples of an R or an R and F entwined beneath a crown indicating manufacturer at Fabricca Reale di Napoli. This is the link - http://www.klingenthal.fr/marquages_coulaux.htm - to the stamps of the Klingenthal inspectors after the loss of the government contracts - it is stated as not so accurate as the government records. There is a crowned B and a crowned M that may have been working together around 1850/1860 - the dates are not precise. The M has a three point crown similar to the one shown on the axe. I would like to discount these to be certain that the axe was made in Naples. Does your copy of the NEUE STÖCKEL show images of the stamps for that I could use for comparison? Regards CC.

25th July 2017, 01:06 PM	#21
CutlassCollector Member Join Date: Jan 2013 Location: Scotland Posts: 331	Hi Corrado, Many thanks for that. Regards, CC

28th July 2017, 02:07 PM	#23
corrado26 Member Join Date: Dec 2014 Location: Black Forest, Germany Posts: 1,207	Thanks a lot, very interesting ! corrado26

30th July 2017, 05:21 PM	#24
CutlassCollector Member Join Date: Jan 2013 Location: Scotland Posts: 331	Thanks Corrado and thank you for your help. It certainly pointed me to the right part of the world and gave me a tour of some very spectacular pistols. I'm still looking for any connection to the grappling hook type anchor - it is so different from the French that I think it may be connected to pre-Italy naval forces possibly from Sardinia-Piedmont, the Two Sicilies or even the Republic of Venice. Anyone have any Italian naval swords or cutlasses? Any help greatly appreciated. Regards, CC Last edited by CutlassCollector; 30th July 2017 at 09:26 PM.