Wootz Katar

mahratt · 8th August 2016, 11:00 AM

Your opinion about this Katar.

mariusgmioc · 8th August 2016, 01:53 PM

Very beautiful and quite big, but I cannot see any wootz patterning.

How do you know that is wootz?

Do you have more detailed photos?

Anyhow, I believe your Katar could greatly benefit from some etching. If it were mine, i would try etching it then selectively remove the etch from the edges and the high relief figures, leaving the darker etch on the base metal and incised areas.

mahratt · 8th August 2016, 02:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mariusgmioc

Very beautiful but I cannot see any wootz patterning.

Do you have more detailed photos?

Please!

http://oriental-arms.com/photos.php?id=2351

mariusgmioc · 8th August 2016, 02:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mahratt

Please!

http://oriental-arms.com/photos.php?id=2351

Now I saw it!

Anyhow, I believe your magnificent Katar could benefit greatly from some etching.

With or without ething it is magnificent! Congratulations!

mahratt · 8th August 2016, 02:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mariusgmioc

Now I saw it!

Anyhow, I believe your magnificent Katar could benefit greatly from some etching.

Of course you are right

mariusgmioc · 8th August 2016, 02:22 PM

double message deleted

mahratt · 8th August 2016, 02:29 PM

Although I prefer to etching in such a wootz

mariusgmioc · 8th August 2016, 03:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mahratt

Although I prefer to etching in such a wootz

Properly done, the Katar will look the same or even better!

And it will be much easier to etch as it doesn't have koftgari areas that need special attention.

Battara · 8th August 2016, 11:32 PM

I also believe that this would be considered a hunting katar. They usually have chiseled animal and hunting designs like this.

Please show pictures of the end results of the etching. Almost looks like crystalline wootz.

ariel · 9th August 2016, 01:34 AM

I would like to ask Jens whether katars with hunting scenes were strictly hunting.

Bob A · 9th August 2016, 04:44 AM

I'm struck by the contrast between the two sets of photos. While obviously the same katar, the Oriental Arms photos give an impression of considerable flatness in the figures on the blade, while emphasising the grain of the wootz. The photos by the OP show more curvilinear sculpting, and eliminate the grain in the steel.

Pictures don't lie, but certainly are unable to completely elicit Truth.

mahratt · 9th August 2016, 05:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bob A

I'm struck by the contrast between the two sets of photos. While obviously the same katar, the Oriental Arms photos give an impression of considerable flatness in the figures on the blade, while emphasising the grain of the wootz. The photos by the OP show more curvilinear sculpting, and eliminate the grain in the steel.

Pictures don't lie, but certainly are unable to completely elicit Truth.

It all depends on perspective and on how is the light from the light sources.

mariusgmioc · 9th August 2016, 01:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bob A

I'm struck by the contrast between the two sets of photos. While obviously the same katar, the Oriental Arms photos give an impression of considerable flatness in the figures on the blade, while emphasising the grain of the wootz. The photos by the OP show more curvilinear sculpting, and eliminate the grain in the steel.

Pictures don't lie, but certainly are unable to completely elicit Truth.

It is extremely difficult to capure the wootz paterning in photos, because of the glare you get from the metal surface. And even more so when there are just faint remains of watering surrounded by shiny metal.

I assume Artzi gave much more attention and spent much more time searching for the right light and angles to capture exactly that faint trace of watering.

mariusgmioc · 9th August 2016, 01:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Battara

I also believe that this would be considered a hunting katar. They usually have chiseled animal and hunting designs like this.

Please show pictures of the end results of the etching. Almost looks like crystalline wootz.

I honestly have serious doubts about the "hunting katars." The katar is a quite effective close quarter combat weapon and other than applying the "coup de grace" to the already dying game, I think it is totally unsuitable for hunting.

Yes, many katars are decorated with hunting scenes, and most probably they were part of the hunting gear of the time, but that doesn't necessarily mean they were primarily used for hunting.

mahratt · 9th August 2016, 02:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mariusgmioc

I honestly have serious doubts about the "hunting katars." The katar is a quite effective close quarter combat weapon and other than applying the "coup de grace" to the already dying game, I think it is totally unsuitable for hunting.

Yes, many katars are decorated with hunting scenes, and most probably they were part of the hunting gear of the time, but that doesn't necessarily mean they were primarily used for hunting.

I think you should read the article about Katar.

estcrh · 9th August 2016, 02:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bob A

I'm struck by the contrast between the two sets of photos. While obviously the same katar, the Oriental Arms photos give an impression of considerable flatness in the figures on the blade, while emphasising the grain of the wootz. The photos by the OP show more curvilinear sculpting, and eliminate the grain in the steel.

Pictures don't lie, but certainly are unable to completely elicit Truth.

Unless this katar was purchased directly from Artzi it could have been worked on, polished etc in some way, the two images do look to show a different surface appearance.

mahratt · 9th August 2016, 02:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by estcrh

Unless this katar was purchased directly from Artzi it could have been worked on, polished etc in some way, the two images do look to show a different surface appearance.

Yes, katar was not purchased directly from Artzi.

mariusgmioc · 9th August 2016, 03:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by estcrh

Unless this katar was purchased directly from Artzi it could have been worked on, polished etc in some way, the two images do look to show a different surface appearance.

Posibly you are right, but I am more inclined to think it's just the play of reflections and shadows.

PS: After carefully examining both photos in detail, I am pretty sure there was absolutely no other polishing done (well maybe some very mild cleaning). Artzi's photo generally is very flat, showing no relief because of the angle and the absence of shadows.

However, if we examine all the scratches, oxidation and traces of pitting (on the edges, on the high relief figures as well as on the chiseled down base metal), we can clearly see them present in both photos in the same configuration. Any polishing would have, if not completely removed, certainly reduced those traces of oxidation and pitting.

Jens Nordlunde · 9th August 2016, 03:48 PM

Yes it is a nice katar, but could we please see what the side guards looks like.

It is true that it can be very difficult to photograph wootz, and it is also true that different light sources can change a picture of a weapon very much, and to this comes in which angle the picture has been taken and how the shadows fall. This are some of the things which can make a weapon look quite different.

When we discuss the 'hunting katar', we must remember that non of us lived at the time. What we have are descriptions by authors and collectors of earlier times, and these descriptions may be correct, or the may not be exactly correct. An European could have joined an Indian hunt, and seen some katars with hunting scenes drawn, thinking these katars must be for hunting, and that was what he would write.
In daily life the Indian's did not draw their katars all the time, so it is difficult to say if the katars had hunting scenes on the blade or not.
I think any katar, the ones decorated with hunting scenes and the more plain ones were used for hunting, but I also think both types were used for war, unless the owner had a great number of katars to choose from.

mariusgmioc · 9th August 2016, 04:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jens Nordlunde

Yes it is a nice katar, but could we please see what the side guards looks like.

It is true that it can be very difficult to photograph wootz, and it is also true that different light sources can change a picture of a weapon very much, and to this comes in which angle the picture has been taken and how the shadows fall. This are some of the things which can make a weapon look quite different.

When we discuss the 'hunting katar', we must remember that non of us lived at the time. What we have are descriptions by authors and collectors of earlier times, and these descriptions may be correct, or the may not be exactly correct. An European could have joined an Indian hunt, and seen some katars with hunting scenes drawn, thinking these katars must be for hunting, and that was what he would write.
In daily life the Indian's did not draw their katars all the time, so it is difficult to say if the katars had hunting scenes on the blade or not.
I think any katar, the ones decorated with hunting scenes and the more plain ones were used for hunting, but I also think both types were used for war, unless the owner had a great number of katars to choose from.

Very logical! My point also.

estcrh · 9th August 2016, 04:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mariusgmioc

I am more inclined to think it's just the play of reflections and shadows.

You are probably right.

I like these hunting scenes, they give some interesting details. Below is one from the Met Museum collection.

David · 9th August 2016, 04:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by estcrh

Unless this katar was purchased directly from Artzi it could have been worked on, polished etc in some way, the two images do look to show a different surface appearance.

Please accept the opinion of a professional photographer. The only difference between these two images (beyond positioning and background) is the lighting.

mariusgmioc · 9th August 2016, 04:49 PM

Considering that the Indian aristocracy didn't go to war every day, neither did they go out to kill somebody regularly, it is quite logical to assume hunting was a much more common activity, and therefore the Katars were used much more frequently at hunting. But that doesn't make them hunting daggers.

It is like many hunters have and use a Kabar USMC, but that doesn't make it a hunting knife.

Interesting that I have seen many Katars, Khanjars and even Tulwars with hunting scenes, but not a single one with a battle scene.

Thank you for the photos!

I would love to get my hand on a Katar like Mahratt's!

Jens Nordlunde · 9th August 2016, 04:49 PM

Thank you David, I had hoped that you could comment on the pictures, as I am only an amateur.

estcrh · 9th August 2016, 04:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mariusgmioc

I would love to get my hand on a Katar like Mahratt's!

I do not think it is a katar, I would like to see the whole image though, nice wootz pattern.

mariusgmioc · 9th August 2016, 05:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by estcrh

I do not think it is a katar, I would like to see the whole image though, nice wootz pattern.

No, no, the one with the hunting scene. That's the one I would like to have!

But I wouldn't say no to this one as well (it seems to be a Khanjar or a relative). The etching is poorly done as the surface was crudely cleaned, but not polished adequately (up to 2000-3000 grit).

Jens Nordlunde · 9th August 2016, 06:17 PM

Marius,
Where would you say stop - no, no, no:-):-)?
We all have our limits, where is yours?

mariusgmioc · 9th August 2016, 07:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jens Nordlunde

Marius,
Where would you say stop - no, no, no:-):-)?
We all have our limits, where is yours?

Don't know. Didn't reach it yet. Will let you know as soon as I get there.

Jens Nordlunde · 9th August 2016, 09:26 PM

I know where my limits are, in both ends of the scala - and I have known for a very long time, but I wont tell :-).

Mercenary · 14th August 2016, 05:36 PM

If compared the number of hunts and battles in the history of India (both South and North), the answer will be obvious

8th August 2016, 11:00 AM	#1
mahratt Member Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: Russia Posts: 1,042	Wootz Katar Your opinion about this Katar. Attached Images

8th August 2016, 02:29 PM	#7
mahratt Member Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: Russia Posts: 1,042	Although I prefer to etching in such a wootz Attached Images

14th August 2016, 05:36 PM	#30
Mercenary Member Join Date: Apr 2011 Location: Moscow, Russia Posts: 421	If compared the number of hunts and battles in the history of India (both South and North), the answer will be obvious Attached Images

8th August 2016, 01:53 PM	#2
mariusgmioc Member Join Date: Sep 2014 Location: Austria Posts: 1,903	Very beautiful and quite big, but I cannot see any wootz patterning. How do you know that is wootz? Do you have more detailed photos? Anyhow, I believe your Katar could greatly benefit from some etching. If it were mine, i would try etching it then selectively remove the etch from the edges and the high relief figures, leaving the darker etch on the base metal and incised areas.

8th August 2016, 02:22 PM	#6
mariusgmioc Member Join Date: Sep 2014 Location: Austria Posts: 1,903	double message deleted

8th August 2016, 11:32 PM	#9
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,219	I also believe that this would be considered a hunting katar. They usually have chiseled animal and hunting designs like this. Please show pictures of the end results of the etching. Almost looks like crystalline wootz.

9th August 2016, 01:34 AM	#10
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	I would like to ask Jens whether katars with hunting scenes were strictly hunting.

9th August 2016, 04:44 AM	#11
Bob A Member Join Date: Feb 2014 Posts: 427	I'm struck by the contrast between the two sets of photos. While obviously the same katar, the Oriental Arms photos give an impression of considerable flatness in the figures on the blade, while emphasising the grain of the wootz. The photos by the OP show more curvilinear sculpting, and eliminate the grain in the steel. Pictures don't lie, but certainly are unable to completely elicit Truth.

9th August 2016, 03:48 PM	#19
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	Yes it is a nice katar, but could we please see what the side guards looks like. It is true that it can be very difficult to photograph wootz, and it is also true that different light sources can change a picture of a weapon very much, and to this comes in which angle the picture has been taken and how the shadows fall. This are some of the things which can make a weapon look quite different. When we discuss the 'hunting katar', we must remember that non of us lived at the time. What we have are descriptions by authors and collectors of earlier times, and these descriptions may be correct, or the may not be exactly correct. An European could have joined an Indian hunt, and seen some katars with hunting scenes drawn, thinking these katars must be for hunting, and that was what he would write. In daily life the Indian's did not draw their katars all the time, so it is difficult to say if the katars had hunting scenes on the blade or not. I think any katar, the ones decorated with hunting scenes and the more plain ones were used for hunting, but I also think both types were used for war, unless the owner had a great number of katars to choose from.

9th August 2016, 04:49 PM	#23
mariusgmioc Member Join Date: Sep 2014 Location: Austria Posts: 1,903	Considering that the Indian aristocracy didn't go to war every day, neither did they go out to kill somebody regularly, it is quite logical to assume hunting was a much more common activity, and therefore the Katars were used much more frequently at hunting. But that doesn't make them hunting daggers. It is like many hunters have and use a Kabar USMC, but that doesn't make it a hunting knife. Interesting that I have seen many Katars, Khanjars and even Tulwars with hunting scenes, but not a single one with a battle scene. Thank you for the photos! I would love to get my hand on a Katar like Mahratt's!

9th August 2016, 06:17 PM	#27
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	Marius, Where would you say stop - no, no, no:-):-)? We all have our limits, where is yours?

9th August 2016, 09:26 PM	#29
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	I know where my limits are, in both ends of the scala - and I have known for a very long time, but I wont tell :-).