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#1 |
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Join Date: Aug 2005
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Dear members
I would like to know your opinion about this Javanese Keris that I have in my possesion the last year. I was told that it is pamor Raja Guntala and the name of it is Belanak Makan Makani / "the Belanak (fish) eating his food". You can see quite clearly the head of a fish at the base. Along the length of the blade is a larger fish chasing a smaller one. At the base, above the fish head, is the form of a man swimming. It is very old (at least I was told) but it would be interesting to know the possible era, dapur etc. Thanks guys ![]() Last edited by Rick; 11th August 2006 at 01:47 AM. Reason: MERGING POSTS |
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#2 |
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Lei ,
But I just don't see what you are describing in the pamor . I do see a form that reminds me of a Pepperidge Farm Goldfish cracker ; but I see no fish head nor any man swimming . I guess that sometimes looking at pamor and interpreting it is like watching clouds . Then again that is just me ; your and others' mileage may vary . Again , I speak only for myself and certainly as no 'expert' . Rick |
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#3 |
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Hi Rick
You are by far a lot more "expert" than me at least. Yes, I can understand your point and of course this is the case many times with the "pamor reading ![]() But, if you see in the first picture you will see the image of a fish chasing a smaller one to eat it. The name of the fish is Belanak (a wild fish in Indonesia I was told...). In the second picture in the base is a form that remindes the head of a fish (like an epinephelous) with it's mouth slightly open. Above the head of the fish and in the left side, is seems that there is the form of a man (head, two legs) if you see it from a diagonal view. If you see the blade form close distance, it is more obvious. The interesting thing is that the name of the pamor from the seller was Belanak Makan Makani (named after the form of the Belanak), something that I have never encounder before. In any case though, you are correct. Fantasy can play many games to a wissfull mind ![]() Thanks for your post. |
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#4 |
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By the way, what is "Pepperidge Farm Goldfish cracker"
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#5 |
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Join Date: Aug 2005
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Guys
Thank you very much for trying to help me. ![]() You are very helpfull |
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#6 | |
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Join Date: Mar 2006
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WRT your keris: Yes, I can see that you can call it a Raja Gundala - Ikan Belanak Makan Makane. A Raja Gundala usually occurs as a dwiwarna, the other being e.g. Beas Utah, Pulo Tirta. Try to see whether the Raja Gundala is Tiban or carved/etched, the former being more prized by connoiseurs for its divine qualities. Regards. ![]() |
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#7 |
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Dear Pangeran
Thank you very much for your contribution. It is pamor Tiban from what I know, but I don't have a clue about the dapur and the tanguh. I know it isn't easy to say from some pictures. Anyway, thank you for your help. |
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#8 |
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Oh, that's a real good likeness!!
![]() I've got a few: Sleeping bear: http://www.kampungnet.com.sg/modules...view_photo.php Moustachioed man with gaping mouth: http://www.kampungnet.com.sg/modules...view_photo.php Screaming face reminiscent of the mask from "I know what you did last summer", I think: http://www.kampungnet.com.sg/modules...view_photo.php And I have a "fetus" rojo gondolo in a "womb" (actually, a qul buntet): |
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#9 |
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Tengkurizan @ Kampungnet have a number of these pamor Raja Gundala, (some with illustrations).
http://www.kampungnet.com.sg/modules...view_album.php This pamor tiban with illustrations...to make it clearer. http://www.kampungnet.com.sg/modules...view_photo.php Another interesting piece pamor tiban piece with outline. http://www.kampungnet.com.sg/modules...view_photo.php Sepokal, I hope you don't mind. ![]() |
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#10 |
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This is fun! Though i wonder just how far one can stretch the imagination and still refer to the pamor as tiban.
Thanks for the outline work Shahrial, but i think i would actually rather see these without to be able to judge better for myself just how obvious the pattern is. That last one you link to is particularly cool. I realize it isn't your keris, but do you have any idea is the blade is really rosy pink at the base as it appears, or is that just a trick of the light? |
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#11 | |
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![]() Tiban literally means unplanned. What you're seeing is supposedly pamor Raja Gundala, afaik. Just to clarify. ![]() |
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#12 |
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Ah.... then perhaps Tengkurizan might be able to provide a undoctored photo (or maybe there already is one in the full grouping of the photos of this keris).
I am aware of the meaning of Tiban, but thanks for the clarification.....and it's too bad that pink is only a trick of the light, or it would really be an interesting find. ![]() |
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#13 |
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These are the sample of Raja Gundala pamor too.
I have 7 blades which have raja gundala pamor. In this picture you will find the figure of the " puthut ". ![]() In this picture you will find 2 raja gundala pamor. The first one is in the " sor-soran"...you will find the figure of sitting tiger. ( this is raja gundala pamor ???? ) The second one is in the middle of blade ( near the top of picture )...you will find the figure of ghost. ( this is real raja gundala pamor ). ![]() In this picture you will find the figure of human ( or Ghost? ) in the top of sogokan. In my imagination is look like "wali"...look at the hat...and look the hand with "chi" ready to send hehehehe. ![]() |
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#14 |
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Thanks fror the pictures Satria. Is the first one truly and example of Raja Gundala? It appears to be accentuated with carving, not merely the pamor itself.
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#15 | |
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That is not carving....actually in the edge of body of puthut figure is the line of sogokan. Sorry the picture is not good enough. This is the other side of that "sor-soran".....still puthut figure too but not so clear like the other one.This picture is not good enough too.....sorry. ![]() |
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#16 |
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Being skeptical about the first Raja Gundala figure being unimproved myself ; it's just too realistic . The other side does look more naturally occurring ; no insult intended here Satria .
I'm interested in finding out more about this ; but it seems to me as a Westerner that these interpretations of random pamor patterns are pretty subjective . As I said on this subject in my earlier post " like interpreting the shapes of clouds " ; it's in the eye of the beholder . |
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#17 |
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Hey guys
Nice photos ![]() Interesting stuff. The truth is that generally some images/forms are too obvious and of course as Rick said, others maybe just wissfull thinking. Being interested more in the esoteric and the pamor aspect, I have an affection for Raja Guntala. I'll try to post a photo of a very interesting tiban with 5 images in the sor-soran area, one of them a flykick! But I am trying to find the possible tanguh of this keris and the dapur. It isn't tilam upih, is it? |
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#18 | |
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#19 |
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AHA! FINALLY SOMETHING RELATING TO KERIS I AM GOOD AT
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#20 | |
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#21 |
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Thanks Alam
![]() Give the photos to the world Vandoo ![]() |
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#22 | |
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#23 |
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Hello People,
Mr Lei Seh Dao, Your earliar picture of Raja Gundolo is not a FISH? It is actually a symbol of "LAM ALIF" or "LAM JALALA". One of the Arabic letter of alphabet. I suspect that it is not tiban. It is a planned pamor. No doubt, it is indeed a very good pamor symbol in a keris. Mr Satria, I'm sorry but I have to agree with Ricky. The pamor Pendita you are having is not a pamor tiban. To have both side having the same looking picture made it worse to be categorized as pamor tiban. However, it is a very good effort to make the pamor to look like a Raja Gundolo. By the way guys? What pink light are you guys talking about? The shape of the pamors have been highlighted with different colours for easy viewing. ![]() |
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#24 | |||
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Quote:
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![]() You see that too....don't you Ricky? ![]() |
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#25 | |
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![]() ![]() Isreena the name is Rick ; not the diminutive form 'Ricky' . ![]() As for the 'pinkness' around the pamor I can't see it cause kampung net takes forever to download on my computer and times out . ![]() Last edited by Rick; 23rd May 2006 at 08:56 PM. |
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#26 |
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Ohhh Lucy!
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#27 | |
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#30 | |
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