Swords from the Egerton's book

ariel · 6th November 2005, 06:57 PM

Egerton is not a very reliable source of information. Any book putting a Parang Latok and a Mandau among the weapons of Assam and N.E. frontier (p. 84, Fig.19) is suspect.
However, he mentions specific weapons such as Lumbiri, a battle-axe of the Garo Naga,a naginata-like "Veecharooval" , batlle axe "Venmuroo" (p.79, Fig 17, ## 89,90,97).
What do we know about them? Are they just a figment of imagination, misreading, or are they real definitions of particular weapons?

Ian · 6th November 2005, 07:14 PM

Ariel:

My understanding of Egerton's book is that all weapons illustrated in the book were collected by him personally and donated to the Victoria and Albert Museum. Those weapons should still be in storage somewhere.

As far as his attributions of weapons from SE Asia, Egerton never traveled to those areas AFAIK so he would have collected such weapons from intermediaries who could have got the attributions completely wrong. Generally, his Indian weapons seem pretty well attributed and described.

Ian.

Quote:

Originally Posted by ariel

Egerton is not a very reliable source of information. Any book putting a Parang Latok and a Mandau among the weapons of Assam and N.E. frontier (p. 84, Fig.19) is suspect.
However, he mentions specific weapons such as Lumbiri, a battle-axe of the Garo Naga,a naginata-like "Veecharooval" , batlle axe "Venmuroo" (p.79, Fig 17, ## 89,90,97).
What do we know about them? Are they just a figment of imagination, misreading, or are they real definitions of particular weapons?

Gavin Nugent · 30th December 2023, 03:37 AM

Whilst looking for clues, I came across this short OLD thread and wanted to add that in some of my research, as Ian has noted, it is not always the author's direct input that was at fault, but data from others.
As can be appreciated, these pioneering works were in the days when mail could take weeks or months to be received, and they had no information superhighway to rely upon for checks and links to library archives or other published works within, often well across the world or country.

The most recent example I came across was a Tulwar attributed to the Sudan, specifically to a major British occupied town.
I suspect the item was gifted or traded for in the Sudan region by officers or soldiers who had been previously stationed in India, and eventually landed in England, but may also have made its way there via the 35th Sikhs regiment or any other any amount of avenues.
On the ground in the day, one may expect them to think it was a Sudanese sword and such history travelled with it.

Jim McDougall · 30th December 2023, 05:39 AM

Indeed a fascinating OLD thread!
Its funny, mentioning how in the OLD days, waiting for months and weeks for mail to be received....I think of my own fledgling days beginning collecting and research. It was in the mid 60s, and I still have old letters from communications researching various topics; museums, authors, dealers, collectors, the old envelopes a virtual stamp collection.
In those days it was international reply coupons (in lieu of SASE).
It took often months to get replies....in at least several cases, replies came over a year later!

When the computer came, it was amazing!!! and I will never forget beginning writing on this forum about 1997-98.

With Egerton (I have the 1880 edition, but use the Dover reprint)...This was a compilation of over 20,000 items held in the 'India Museum' established by the East India Co. in 1801. The first curator was Sir Charles Wilkins who was an orientalist who lived in India 1770 to 1786. He was said to have been the first Englishman who could read Sanskrit.
After dissolution of the EIC in 1858, the collections were moved in 1861 to Fife House in Whitehall; in 1869 to the India Office; then in 1875 to the British Museum, Kew Gardens and to South Kensington Museum (now Victoria & Albert (India Section opened in 1880. )

Lord Egerton of Tatton(b. 1832) by 1858 was seated in the House of Commons until 1883. However he was indeed in India for a short time c. 1855.

While he may have collected some items there, it would seem the majority of the weapons in the collections in the India Museum were already there by the time Egerton wrote his handbook. It is unclear what prompted him to write this, but it seems he had a profound interest in these arms and history as his reference is surprisingly accurate for the most part considering the dynamics of these collections being inventoried and moved. It would also seem that much of the identifications were likely carried out by the first curator Sir Charles Wilkins, who must have collected numerous items in his time in India. Also he would have had resources in sanskrit, as well as numerous items coming in from those returning from India.

Just how much Egerton himself might have collected is unclear, but overall as noted, he seems to have documented the inventories pretty well all considered.

As far as Indian arms in the Sudan, the case of the 'haladie' is a good case in point for a weapon regarded as having come from Rajasthan, but becoming quite well known in Sudan. I have also seen examples of tulwars with kaskara blades, and a pata with what is clearly a very old Sudanese blade.
That weapons of these regions of the British colonial empire somehow came together in these anomalies is intriguing, but not surprising.
As Gav notes, it would not be hard to imagine an uninitiated observer to presume a tulwar in Sudanese context was a 'variant' of the more familiar arms there. These kinds of circumstances are what make investigative research on arms so fascinating!

6th November 2005, 06:57 PM	#1
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Swords from the Egerton's book Egerton is not a very reliable source of information. Any book putting a Parang Latok and a Mandau among the weapons of Assam and N.E. frontier (p. 84, Fig.19) is suspect. However, he mentions specific weapons such as Lumbiri, a battle-axe of the Garo Naga,a naginata-like "Veecharooval" , batlle axe "Venmuroo" (p.79, Fig 17, ## 89,90,97). What do we know about them? Are they just a figment of imagination, misreading, or are they real definitions of particular weapons?

30th December 2023, 05:39 AM	#4
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,938	Indeed a fascinating OLD thread! Its funny, mentioning how in the OLD days, waiting for months and weeks for mail to be received....I think of my own fledgling days beginning collecting and research. It was in the mid 60s, and I still have old letters from communications researching various topics; museums, authors, dealers, collectors, the old envelopes a virtual stamp collection. In those days it was international reply coupons (in lieu of SASE). It took often months to get replies....in at least several cases, replies came over a year later! When the computer came, it was amazing!!! and I will never forget beginning writing on this forum about 1997-98. With Egerton (I have the 1880 edition, but use the Dover reprint)...This was a compilation of over 20,000 items held in the 'India Museum' established by the East India Co. in 1801. The first curator was Sir Charles Wilkins who was an orientalist who lived in India 1770 to 1786. He was said to have been the first Englishman who could read Sanskrit. After dissolution of the EIC in 1858, the collections were moved in 1861 to Fife House in Whitehall; in 1869 to the India Office; then in 1875 to the British Museum, Kew Gardens and to South Kensington Museum (now Victoria & Albert (India Section opened in 1880. ) Lord Egerton of Tatton(b. 1832) by 1858 was seated in the House of Commons until 1883. However he was indeed in India for a short time c. 1855. While he may have collected some items there, it would seem the majority of the weapons in the collections in the India Museum were already there by the time Egerton wrote his handbook. It is unclear what prompted him to write this, but it seems he had a profound interest in these arms and history as his reference is surprisingly accurate for the most part considering the dynamics of these collections being inventoried and moved. It would also seem that much of the identifications were likely carried out by the first curator Sir Charles Wilkins, who must have collected numerous items in his time in India. Also he would have had resources in sanskrit, as well as numerous items coming in from those returning from India. Just how much Egerton himself might have collected is unclear, but overall as noted, he seems to have documented the inventories pretty well all considered. As far as Indian arms in the Sudan, the case of the 'haladie' is a good case in point for a weapon regarded as having come from Rajasthan, but becoming quite well known in Sudan. I have also seen examples of tulwars with kaskara blades, and a pata with what is clearly a very old Sudanese blade. That weapons of these regions of the British colonial empire somehow came together in these anomalies is intriguing, but not surprising. As Gav notes, it would not be hard to imagine an uninitiated observer to presume a tulwar in Sudanese context was a 'variant' of the more familiar arms there. These kinds of circumstances are what make investigative research on arms so fascinating! Attached Images

30th December 2023, 03:37 AM	#3
Gavin Nugent Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 2,818	Whilst looking for clues, I came across this short OLD thread and wanted to add that in some of my research, as Ian has noted, it is not always the author's direct input that was at fault, but data from others. As can be appreciated, these pioneering works were in the days when mail could take weeks or months to be received, and they had no information superhighway to rely upon for checks and links to library archives or other published works within, often well across the world or country. The most recent example I came across was a Tulwar attributed to the Sudan, specifically to a major British occupied town. I suspect the item was gifted or traded for in the Sudan region by officers or soldiers who had been previously stationed in India, and eventually landed in England, but may also have made its way there via the 35th Sikhs regiment or any other any amount of avenues. On the ground in the day, one may expect them to think it was a Sudanese sword and such history travelled with it.