Old Spanish Colonial Sword with Inscription

Ian · 18th March 2006, 09:55 PM

A few years back I posted pictures of a double-edged Spanish Colonial sword with the inscription "Recuerdo Republicano" (In Memory of the Republican) on the blade. That thread is here: http://www.vikingsword.com/ubb/Forum1/HTML/001235.html

Jim McDougall provided an elegant description of Spanish colonial swords in that thread, considering this one to be a Philippine origin, and drew attention to the similarity of the sword to the espada ancha of Mexico.

I found Jim's comments quite persuasive. However, I'm reviving the topic because I received a note from another collector who believes that the sword is more likely Mexican since it does not resemble Filipino sword blades of that period -- notably the triangular cross section of the blade -- while the leather sheath is not of Visayan origin (as suggested on the previous thread). I'm happy to accept the non-Visayan attribution of the sheath -- it could be from many places -- but I'm not so sure about the Mexican claim.

So I thought that I would put the pictures up again and ask our current Forumites for their opinions about likely origins.

And who was the "Republican" likely to have been?

Ian.

Tim Simmons · 18th March 2006, 10:04 PM

That looks fantastic! I know nothing of these things but Spanish speaking America is more than Mexico. Could it be from Peru or countries there abouts, all fighting wars of independence. It might also have its origins in a parade context. I like it very much, I will commit it to memory.

Marc · 18th March 2006, 10:51 PM

Just for the record...

"Recuerdo Republicano" could be translated, in a first read, either as "Republican Memory" or "Republican Souvenir".
It lacks a lot of grammar to be "In Memory of the Republican" (which would be "En Recuerdo del Republicano"), even considering that articles and such are the first things to fall from the sentences that are found in bladed weapons...

Ian · 19th March 2006, 12:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Marc

Just for the record...

"Recuerdo Republicano" could be translated, in a first read, either as "Republican Memory" or "Republican Souvenir".
It lacks a lot of grammar to be "In Memory of the Republican" (which would be "En Recuerdo del Republicano"), even considering that articles and such are the first things to fall from the sentences that are found in bladed weapons...

Marc:

Thank you for the correction.

Ian.

M ELEY · 19th March 2006, 07:06 AM

Hmmm. Well, it doesn't resemble any of the traditional pieces of Mexico or the American southwest. Likewise, from the limited pieces I've seen of South America (mainly, those pieces of the ealy 19th century with basket-type hilts with the bolted guards/knuckle bows), I still think Jim had it right. The writing is decidedly crude, as found on some espada (I had one with the primative writing "Por la vita, por mei Patria" and have seen others with such), but the shape of the hilt/grip looks more Philippine. Note the lack of the down-turned guard found on so many espada and other SW items. A few years back, we discussed Spanish swords from various ports of origin (Salee, Spanish Moracco, the Caribbean) and the multitude of variations seen on these swords, so in keeping with this, I don't think the blade is such a contradiction. The only other thing that struck me is the thought that this piece could have come from a Spanish/Phillipine port and made the trip over to Colonial New Spain (Mexico). Just speculating. Nice piece, in any case.

Jim McDougall · 19th March 2006, 08:03 PM

Ian , thank you so much for the very kind words!

and Mark I appreciate as always your support.
I still believe this to be a Philippine item because of the rather vestigial form of the hilt, extremely light and seemingly a form reminiscent of the early hilts of espada ancha form. I agree that the Mexican influence was likely borne via the steady commerce between there and the Spanish possessions in the Philippines, and this is most likely a Spanish American war souvenier. The true espada ancha (=wide sword) in Mexico had devolved into virtually a large hunting knife or Bowie lookalike by the 1840's, and the blades were still heavy and typically undecorated, mostly blacksmith grade with crude presence.

Even though the term 'republic' is associated with Mexico with latter pre-revolucion time period and the 'rurales' para-military forces of late 19th century, in this application it seems more likely Philippine insurrection form.

Still a very interesting form, I have one similar but much more plain with a 'bolo' type blade.

All the best,
Jim

RSWORD · 20th March 2006, 02:00 AM

Ian,

I would not rule out the Philippines on this piece. I sold a piece some months back in which the blade was near identical to yours but the handle was wood and was carved to resemble military sabers(it had a carved backstrap as i recall) from Mexico and the scabbard was carved of wood, with a raised throat and chape carved in imitation of leather and brass examples, again most probably from Mexico. The carving suggested strong Philippine origin but was obviously done in imitation of other swords. Was there a source for Mexican weapons in the Philippines at the turn of the century? The form copied seems mid-19th century if not a bit earlier as well. In any case, it was an interesting piece and over the years I have seen this blade style mounted up like Jim's example(bolo) so while not typical of Philippines I think there are enough examples around to give consideration.

Ian · 20th March 2006, 06:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RSWORD

Ian,
... Was there a source for Mexican weapons in the Philippines at the turn of the century? ...

Hi Rick:

Yes, there were close ties between Mexico and the Philippines. I believe many of the Philippines' Governors came from Mexico during the period of Spanish rule.

Ian.

18th March 2006, 09:55 PM	#1
Ian Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Aussie Bush Posts: 4,209	Old Spanish Colonial Sword with Inscription A few years back I posted pictures of a double-edged Spanish Colonial sword with the inscription "Recuerdo Republicano" (In Memory of the Republican) on the blade. That thread is here: http://www.vikingsword.com/ubb/Forum1/HTML/001235.html Jim McDougall provided an elegant description of Spanish colonial swords in that thread, considering this one to be a Philippine origin, and drew attention to the similarity of the sword to the espada ancha of Mexico. I found Jim's comments quite persuasive. However, I'm reviving the topic because I received a note from another collector who believes that the sword is more likely Mexican since it does not resemble Filipino sword blades of that period -- notably the triangular cross section of the blade -- while the leather sheath is not of Visayan origin (as suggested on the previous thread). I'm happy to accept the non-Visayan attribution of the sheath -- it could be from many places -- but I'm not so sure about the Mexican claim. So I thought that I would put the pictures up again and ask our current Forumites for their opinions about likely origins. And who was the "Republican" likely to have been? Ian.

18th March 2006, 10:04 PM	#2
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,807	That looks fantastic! I know nothing of these things but Spanish speaking America is more than Mexico. Could it be from Peru or countries there abouts, all fighting wars of independence. It might also have its origins in a parade context. I like it very much, I will commit it to memory.

18th March 2006, 10:51 PM	#3
Marc Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Madrid / Barcelona Posts: 256	Just for the record... "Recuerdo Republicano" could be translated, in a first read, either as "Republican Memory" or "Republican Souvenir". It lacks a lot of grammar to be "In Memory of the Republican" (which would be "En Recuerdo del Republicano"), even considering that articles and such are the first things to fall from the sentences that are found in bladed weapons...

19th March 2006, 07:06 AM	#5
M ELEY Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: NC, U.S.A. Posts: 2,101	Hmmm. Well, it doesn't resemble any of the traditional pieces of Mexico or the American southwest. Likewise, from the limited pieces I've seen of South America (mainly, those pieces of the ealy 19th century with basket-type hilts with the bolted guards/knuckle bows), I still think Jim had it right. The writing is decidedly crude, as found on some espada (I had one with the primative writing "Por la vita, por mei Patria" and have seen others with such), but the shape of the hilt/grip looks more Philippine. Note the lack of the down-turned guard found on so many espada and other SW items. A few years back, we discussed Spanish swords from various ports of origin (Salee, Spanish Moracco, the Caribbean) and the multitude of variations seen on these swords, so in keeping with this, I don't think the blade is such a contradiction. The only other thing that struck me is the thought that this piece could have come from a Spanish/Phillipine port and made the trip over to Colonial New Spain (Mexico). Just speculating. Nice piece, in any case.

19th March 2006, 08:03 PM	#6
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,957	Ian , thank you so much for the very kind words! and Mark I appreciate as always your support. I still believe this to be a Philippine item because of the rather vestigial form of the hilt, extremely light and seemingly a form reminiscent of the early hilts of espada ancha form. I agree that the Mexican influence was likely borne via the steady commerce between there and the Spanish possessions in the Philippines, and this is most likely a Spanish American war souvenier. The true espada ancha (=wide sword) in Mexico had devolved into virtually a large hunting knife or Bowie lookalike by the 1840's, and the blades were still heavy and typically undecorated, mostly blacksmith grade with crude presence. Even though the term 'republic' is associated with Mexico with latter pre-revolucion time period and the 'rurales' para-military forces of late 19th century, in this application it seems more likely Philippine insurrection form. Still a very interesting form, I have one similar but much more plain with a 'bolo' type blade. All the best, Jim

20th March 2006, 02:00 AM	#7
RSWORD Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Greensboro, NC Posts: 1,084	Ian, I would not rule out the Philippines on this piece. I sold a piece some months back in which the blade was near identical to yours but the handle was wood and was carved to resemble military sabers(it had a carved backstrap as i recall) from Mexico and the scabbard was carved of wood, with a raised throat and chape carved in imitation of leather and brass examples, again most probably from Mexico. The carving suggested strong Philippine origin but was obviously done in imitation of other swords. Was there a source for Mexican weapons in the Philippines at the turn of the century? The form copied seems mid-19th century if not a bit earlier as well. In any case, it was an interesting piece and over the years I have seen this blade style mounted up like Jim's example(bolo) so while not typical of Philippines I think there are enough examples around to give consideration.