Help wanted for my Khanjar!

[chregu]

hello together
I need help for the accurate determination of the cultural area (Ottoman is clear)
the approximate age?
and I know, you see it almost does what for a kind of wootz that? He is all black, Kara ...........?
Many thanks for any information.
greeting Chregu

[ALEX]

This is Kurdish jambiya (from East Turkey or North Iraq), late 19th Century, with typical, and good quality wootz blade.

[Dom]

your are a lucky man, beautiful Kurdish jambiya
and very nice "johar"

à +

Dom

[Battara]

Yup Kurdish............

[chregu]

Thank you for your help.
why is the Kurdish dagger jambiya and not Khanjar?
which means johar?
chregu

[Dom]

Originally Posted by chregu

Thank you for your help.
why is the Kurdish dagger jambiya and not Khanjar?
which means johar?
chregu

Hi chregu
- why Kurdish ?
because our background or expertise, give us that answer,
with a margin of 0% error ... at least, as far as this dagger it's concerned

- why jambyia and not Khanjar ?
because our background or expertise, give us that answer,
with a margin of 0% error ... at least, as far as this dagger it's concerned
in fact, the shape of the dagger, it's too much characteristic,
no doubt about our affirmation
the appellation could change from country to country, e.g.
with roughly the same form, an A.E.U. dagger will be a khangar, when in Yemen, we will talk about "jambiya"

- what means "johar" ? it's a Farsi word for what Indian call "wootz"
wootz - definition of wootz , meaning of wootz
a famous type of steel from India , much admired for making sword blades.

the secret to be able to recognize, and not to be lost, with all those subtleties;
- read a lot
- watch a lot of pictures
and, start a collection
also to use the function "Search" in our forum

best regards

à +

Dom

[chregu]

hello dom
Thank you for your answer.
Unfortunately, my English is so bad that it leads to misunderstandings!
I collect knives and daggers for 20 years!
I always assumed that the Ottoman, Persian and Indo-Persian curved daggers ar Khanjar or Kandshar, and the Arab curved daggers ar Jambiya.
more recently I know here in the forum, that only the Yemeni daggers be called Jambiya, all others Khanjar?
I still not understand the difference !
however, the difference between melting damask (wootz) and forged damask (damask steel) I know very well, because I know how to make it.

in the photo are almost all of my curved daggers shown.
for me so far: Khanjar top row, bottom row Jambiya
But the is not so?
I would like to learn more, but it is difficult, if man can not really English! sorry.
So please help me yet! when something is a Khanjar when Jambiya?
gruss chregu

[David]

Originally Posted by Dom

Hi chregu
- why Kurdish ?
because our background or expertise, give us that answer,
with a margin of 0% error ... at least, as far as this dagger it's concerned

- why jambyia and not Khanjar ?
because our background or expertise, give us that answer,
with a margin of 0% error ... at least, as far as this dagger it's concerned
in fact, the shape of the dagger, it's too much characteristic,
no doubt about our affirmation
the appellation could change from country to country, e.g.
with roughly the same form, an A.E.U. dagger will be a khangar, when in Yemen, we will talk about "jambiya"

- what means "johar" ? it's a Farsi word for what Indian call "wootz"
wootz - definition of wootz , meaning of wootz
a famous type of steel from India , much admired for making sword blades.

the secret to be able to recognize, and not to be lost, with all those subtleties;
- read a lot
- watch a lot of pictures
and, start a collection
also to use the function "Search" in our forum

best regards

à +

Dom

Well Dom, it looks as though our friend Chregu already has a pretty good head start on starting a collection...
May i just make the suggestion that when a member asks a simple question that perhaps a simple answer is due, one with a touch less sarcasm.
Frankly, you have left me a bit confused by your answer as well. You state 'with roughly the same form, an A.E.U. dagger will be a khangar, when in Yemen, we will talk about "jambiya"' Firstly, can i assume that you mean the U.A.E.(United Arab Emirate) here, because i do not know what the A.E.U. is otherwise? If this is what you did mean how does this apply to a Kurdish Dagger? Kurdistan covers parts of Iran, Iraq, Turkey and Syria so it is neither A.E.U. or Yemen and does not fall neatly into this "rule".
Chregu reveals he is aware of wootz in his original post. So your elementary definition of the "famous type of steel" seems a bit unnecessary and condescending.
Please, let us all realize that we have many members, yourself included, who are attempting the very difficult practice of communicating in a common language that is not their own. Let's cut our members just a little more slack here and try to be truly helpful and informative on these forums. Answers such as "because our expertise says so" or "try reading more and starting a collection" will never be very well received and trying to find just one "proper" answer to this question through our search function will probably only lead to contradiction and confusion.

[Henk]

Wow, Chregru that's a very nice collection.

A little bit sarcasm and fun should be allowed in this forum. Still i think David is right. We have a lot of members here that haven't the english language as their native tongue. Unfortunately i do notice some sharp comments and answers to each other that aren't neccesarry at all, wich are the result of not understanding each other and often the result by problems in understanding what is precisely said. As Chegru mentioned that he has some difficulties by understanding english we should be careful by making jokes wich could be easily misunderstood.

On the other hand some remarks Dom made are very true.
Read a lot. In books, on this forum and on the entire internet where you can find a lot of information as well.
Watch pictures. Very important. Look and learn!! And certainly not unimportant, enjoy!!
Start a collection. How true!! When you bought a new piece for your collection dig up all the information you can get and learn from it. On the other hand it isn't a good idea to start a collection. I want those nice sharp and pointy things. All those guys bidding you out on a nice sharp object.

From what Chregu showed us, and thank you so much for sharing, i would say, and please forgive me any mistakes becauase this isn't my field at all, but by reading, watching pictures and collecting in a complete other field of interest one's knowledge even in this field will increase, we find in te top line nr 1, 2,3 and 5 kurdish jambiya nr 4 i would say a syrian jambiya nr 6 and 7 arab jambiya and nr 8 a khanjar from India.
In the middle a wahabite.
On the bottom line Arab and yemeni jambiya.

As said, not my field of interest and certainly not of collecting i think I'm able by reading and looking at pictures on this wonderful forum to tell something about this small collection. Not perfect and maybe full with mistakes, but hey, i'm convinced i didn't make a complete mess of it.

[Dom]

Originally Posted by Henk

... Still i think David is right. We have a lot of members here that haven't the english language as their native tongue.

Hi Henk
as you said ... "We have a lot of members here that haven't the English language as their native tongue",
I'm one of them, and I have to confess, that my level in English talking it's better than in writing
I deeply apologize, if I hurt some one
if I turn somebody in derision, it's only me, the concerned ...
I don't allow me to mock some one, who am I, do to so ?

je suis profondément désolé "Chregru" si mon message a pu te laisser une impression mitigée,
je confesse bien volontiers, que mon expression anglaise, n'a aucune base académique,
elle fut acquise ... sur le terrain (Moyen-Orient), et présente de ce fait de nombreuses lacunes,
j'espère que tu accepteras mes excuses

sorry formites, but this small paragraph in French
it's to clarify definitely the situation and this to avoid an other ... misunderstanding

à +

Dom

[David]

Thanks for your response and understanding Dom...

[Dom]

Originally Posted by David

Frankly, you have left me a bit confused by your answer as well. You state 'with roughly the same form, an A.E.U. dagger will be a khangar, when in Yemen, we will talk about "jambiya"' Firstly, can i assume that you mean the U.A.E.(United Arab Emirate) here, because i do not know what the A.E.U. is otherwise? If this is what you did mean how does this apply to a Kurdish Dagger? Kurdistan covers parts of Iran, Iraq, Turkey and Syria so it is neither A.E.U. or Yemen and does not fall neatly into this "rule".

Hi David
again, a difficulty to express my thought,
Arabian Peninsula is constituted as you know of ;
- KSA (Kingdom of Saudi Arabia)
- Yemen
- and the other countries who form .... Arabian Peninsula

it's these countries that I grouped under the (wrong) term of;
- A.E.U. (by extension) it's because in a very "tiny" territory, you have
- not less than of 7 Emirates, not counting Kuwait and Oman
the nestings are very numerous,
sometimes even for a similar weapon, we can find them under different labels,
or for different daggers, found them under the same name
and all these countries, are using Arabic language

as far as what I should like to explain, the subject is a little bit confuse,
not easy to give a very "square" description; because not possible to enter in writing,
the experience of 6 years in Saudi, one year in Sharjah, and around 2 years in Kuwait
I learned that, what we call "Jambiya" for a Kurdish dagger is, as well as, the long wahhabite dagger ...
I learned also, that in A.E.U. as well as in Saudi, they call "Khanjar" what looks more or less the same in Yemen,
but they know under the name of "Jambiya"

at that moment, we know it, because on spot we learn how it's named
but then to know why, here and there, not the same weapons,
even if it has the same name ... it's too much to ask for

I speak of course of general,
and if we refer to "Ibrahiim al Balooshi" posts, who are very well documented and explicit,
we should approach of a revelation

best regards

à +

Dom

[David]

Thanks for your further explanation Dom.
Are we sure then that the Kurds use the term "jambiya", or do they, perhaps, have a completely different term altogether for this weapon?

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Salaams all ~ Thankyou Dom.

The question of Jambiyya and Khanjar is a long convoluted and often emotional rollercoaster frankly best put in the locker marked "interesting" and left pending. It certainly is not worth arguing about ...

What is a Tulvar what is a Pulvar what is ?...Honestly whilst not saying who cares? it really doesnt matter provided we use the accepted country term in each case otherwise it gets badly confusing...

Jambiyya / Khanjar. In discussion and debate it is a conundrum still unfolding. In general terms in the Oman and UAE (at one time all one country, loosely speaking) they have a Khanjar which can be defined as (Khanjar; An Arabic word. It may be a word which was adopted by the Persians and transmitted to India..the Indian Khanjar appeared in the early 16th Century.)

In Oman it is A National Iconic Emblem being a broad curved dagger, with two cutting edges and a central strengthening spine ending at a sharp point with a 45 degree right sweep on a hilt of horn and /or silver or wood, inside a curved scabbard of about 90 degree right turn (the precise significance of which is as yet unknown) possibly denoting balace and ancient design. The entire ensemble rigged to sit front and centre but naturally slightly tilted and on a decorated traditional exclusively Omani or UAE belt. Silver content; high. Blade; steel. See my thread The Omani Khanjar for details

The Jambiyya(Janbiyya) upon which I know little; is a word used in Yemen, Saudia and other countries and could be an Arabic word or Hemyaritic or Swahili and ancient. No one, as yet, is sure. Whereas probably everyone in Oman and Yemen knows both terms, they each use the in country word to describe what are quite different but obscurely also similar weapons. After all they are both similar curved daggers and both sit in fairly monumental scabbards at the front of the body..on a traditional belt.

What has to be realised is that these two nations have been virtually almost shut off from the world and each other until relatively recently. Thus they achieved techno-lock especially with weapons, jewellery, architecture, dress, dialect and a host of other cultural and traditional areas.

As I have indicated research is ongoing on this difficult "shrouded in time" subject of word useage Khanjar and Jambiyya but it will take time and actually it may never be solved. Please be patient and try not to implode !

Simply put... Oman has the Khanjar as Yemen has the Jambiyya.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[chregu]

hello together
ibrahim Thanks for your detailed explanation!
now I understand. I was just confused. I've always thought that I speak what I am desolate, I read a lot and I own many books, but I never stop learning! and that's good!
It never pays to argue such a thing!
Thank you again.
and yet to Dom, I do not speak French well!
i redä schwizerdütsch, leider gets höchschtwarschiendlech e kes öbersezigsprogramm dezue! aber macht nüt.
so and now I want to hear from you that I have a great collection!! laughing


I wish you a pleasant evening

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by chregu

hello together
ibrahim Thanks for your detailed explanation!
now I understand. I was just confused. I've always thought that I speak what I am desolate, I read a lot and I own many books, but I never stop learning! and that's good!
It never pays to argue such a thing!
Thank you again.
and yet to Dom, I do not speak French well!
i redä schwizerdütsch, leider gets höchschtwarschiendlech e kes öbersezigsprogramm dezue! aber macht nüt.
so and now I want to hear from you that I have a great collection!! laughing


I wish you a pleasant evening

Salaams chregu . Indeed that is a great collection and I note the Omani Khanjar #7 bottom left. Baatina Coast Oman. Whereas the dagger to its right is Habbaabi Saudia. Shukran..
Regards Ibrahiim al Balooshi.