26th October 2018, 10:16 AM | #1 |
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Boabdil swords and Jineta
Hi Guys,
I was looking in our forum for infos about jineta and Boabdil swords and i found only one descent thread http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ghlight=jineta Some posts are very interesting. The problem is that the original post was about the drooping quillons and not specificaly on the Jineta. Do you have more informations about these swords? Their number in the world? (Ibrahim posted something about it), their copies / reproductions? I saw many of them of different qualities... Thank you for you help - and knowledge! Kubur |
26th October 2018, 06:47 PM | #2 |
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That thread from 2008 was a remarkable exercise, and had a great deal of information about the Hispano-Moresque swords (Boabdil was only one user of them rather than a descriptive term). The term 'jineta' refers to light horseman and may derive from the Berber 'zanete' with similar meaning for the light cavalry used in Spain responding to Umayyad invaders in the 8th century.
It does not seem that the stylistic form regarded as 'jineta' (but also Nasrid) became known until 13th century during the 'Reconquista' ending the Muslim rule in Andalusia in 1491.....that was where Boabdil the Nasrid ruler was defeated. While this synopsis is perhaps not as accurate as more thorough research might reveal, it gives an idea of the time frame. Swords of the Nasrid/Hispano-Moresque styles are pretty rare, and I know only of examples in museums in Spain. They are best described in Calvert (1907), "Spanish Arms & Armour", although Nicolle's works have great coverage as noted in the discussions in the linked thread. Bibliographies there as well as even in the Osprey monographs are very thorough. In the original thread there was some great discussion which I enjoyed very much and Marc (who left shortly later) and Gonzalo added outstanding and detailed research. It was the brilliant input by Ibrahiim several years later that brought in a good deal of outstanding and pertinent data and insight showing comparisons and plausible connections and differences between these and more recent Arab swords. That input actually brought back Gonzalo from hiatus and rekindled more valuable discussion. Hopefully this gives a bit of overview that might be helpful. I think the discussions in the link attached here are more on the overall style of the Nasrid swords in which the 'drooping quillons' were a distictive feature. |
27th October 2018, 03:26 AM | #3 | |
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Yes, the best surviving ones are in Spain, a complete one (down to the scabbard belt) in astoundingly good condition is in the Museo del Ejército de Madrid (you can see images in Ada Brunn Hoffmeyer's "From Medieval Sword to Renaissance Rapier" in Robt Held (ed) ART, ARMS, AND ARMOUR (1979), p 58. Years ago someone gave me a 35mm print image of a really nice one in the Musée de l'Armée in Paris. but I can't seem to locate it at the moment. |
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27th October 2018, 05:10 AM | #4 |
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Hi Philip,
Yup, you're right it was actually on Jan 2nd but Ferd and Izzie summoned Muhammed XII (Boabdil) to surrender in 1491 a short time before that so technically 1492. In any case, it was the end of Nasrid rule in Andalusian Spain of the time. The profound influences of the Nasrid dynasty not only deeply influenced Spain in continuum despite the end of Muslim rule, but filtered into Europe and many cultures in addition to the remaining influence in the Maghreb. It is remarkable that these swords, which I think of as Hispano-Moresque, do not remain in larger number and even those which remain have been challenged as far as authenticity and provenance. I did not know of the one in Musee d'le Armee in Paris, and excellent reference added in the Ada Bruhn Hoffmeyer article in Held (1979). I imagine there must be other articles in "Gladius", the arms journal in Spain, but have not checked their index. |
27th October 2018, 06:27 AM | #5 |
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Fred and Izzie.....
Sounds like a couple in SF bathhouse:-) |
27th October 2018, 06:52 AM | #6 | |
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27th October 2018, 07:38 AM | #7 | |
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This is an intriguing sword, the blade defies conventional perceptions and I don't know what to make of a hilt that is said to be 19th cent. on it (a revival of a long-obsolete form). I regret not posting a scan of the image(s) simply because the large-format pages, on which the sword appears on two facing pages and again on a three-sheet foldout, are too large for my scanner. At any rate, the catalog commentary has something interesting to say about the Hispano-Moresque so-called jinetasthat are the real subject of this thread. According to Mr Mohamed, there are only six known examples, and their blades are nondescript, uninscribed, and do not resemble any comparable double-edged blades from other Islamic culture-spheres. This group was reportedly exhibited at the Alhambra in 1992 to mark the cinquecentennial of the conquest. You might want to look for the exhibition catalog, Al-Andalus: the Art of Islamic Spain (Metro. Mus. of Art, 1997) which has images of these swords. I don't have a copy but it's on the "get" list as of now! That being said, it might be appropriate to examine some of Mr Mohamed's assertions regarding this small genre. As to their dissimilarity to other Islamic double-edged blades, if we could compare images of all six surviving examples with the counterparts to this type in the Topkapi Sarayi Museum collection, featured in Ünsal Yücel's Islamic Swords and Swordsmiths, we might have a better idea of the degree of dissimilarity and whether it is significant. Based on the images available to me at present, the Topkapi's published blades are of flattened lenticular cross section except for one with full length wide shallow fullers. The jinete sword published in Held (referenced in prior post) has a half-length deep and narrow fuller, looking for all the world like Oakeshott's Subtype XIIIb. It would be great to see what the other survivors look like. All of the above referenced blades have similar ogival tip profiles, regardless of fullering or or other details. As to inscriptions or the lack thereof, the example published in Held does show a circular cartouche, bridging the fuller, that contains some squiggles including something looking like an S, which in the book illustration is of insufficient resolution to decipher. Whether that qualifies as an "inscription" awaits better imagery. Let's hope that the Al-Andalus catalog provides us more to go on. |
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27th October 2018, 08:55 AM | #8 |
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Thank you Jim, it's a very clear and net abstract.
I will copy and paste the most relevant informations and pictures on Jineta / Boabdil swords of the previous thread here for all the forum members and visitors. |
27th October 2018, 08:58 AM | #9 | |
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27th October 2018, 09:14 AM | #18 |
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Now some relevant pictures
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27th October 2018, 09:15 AM | #19 |
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More including the one with a "falchion type blade" (in a Museum in Paris)
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27th October 2018, 09:20 AM | #20 |
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Dear Forum Members,
Is it possible to post here only information's and pictures relevant to the topic Jineta & so-called Boabdil swords?? I noticed in many threads a difficulty for the forum members to focus on a specific topic, that demonstrates of course their immense knowledge but also a difficulty to develop theirs ideas along a main stream... Thanks Kubur |
27th October 2018, 02:17 PM | #21 | |
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We know you don't mean to be so authoritative as you may sound. Probably members find that weaving considerations on topic peripherals is part of the game. You should see what going off topic really is . |
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27th October 2018, 02:30 PM | #22 | |
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27th October 2018, 03:09 PM | #23 | |
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Written material pretends that he was actually around by the time the Nasrid King was expelled from Granada. Interesting also how Francisco Pradilla depicted in 1882 the handing over the city keys to the Catholic Kings. Look at Boabdil's and one of his knights swords. An artist's gesture of imagination this painting must be as, judging by what is registered, the Nasrid King delidered the keys to Fernando's officials at the Comares Tower of the Alhambra, on the 2nd. January 1492 by dawn. . Last edited by fernando; 29th October 2018 at 03:47 PM. Reason: Spell |
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27th October 2018, 04:28 PM | #24 | |
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Its the whole idea of the forum, I agree. But it's also possible to open a new thread just for discussion on peripheral topics... |
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27th October 2018, 04:30 PM | #25 | |
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I was thinking the National library https://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/bt...f/f1.item.zoom Another one in Paris with a different kind of blade http://www.musee-armee.fr/collection...-boadbdil.html |
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27th October 2018, 04:41 PM | #26 |
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Question the first Jineta has a German blade from late 16th early 17th c.
Is it common to have Jineta with late blades? Do you know if the Spanish examples are the same? It's probably logic when you look at the quality of the hilts and scabbards. It might explain why these swords survived until our days... |
27th October 2018, 06:28 PM | #27 | |
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Kubur thank you for saying so, and thank you for posting the great images and recapping some of the outstanding discourse from 2008 and 2017 on this complex topic. It is good to have this comprehensive material compiled together here for readers and future researchers. Philip, thanks for the mention of the Furisayya volume which is brilliantly compiled material and photos as well. The complexities of this sword form often move into a notable spectrum given the periods and geo-cultural considerations but seem distinct and influential in their character. The decorative motif and elaborate designs in addition to their 'exotic' structures and elements are breathtaking to say the least. |
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27th October 2018, 06:48 PM | #28 | |
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27th October 2018, 09:44 PM | #29 | |
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The sword belongs to the National library. http://medaillesetantiques.bnf.fr/ws...2148/c33gbdnf6 This sword is called epee /espada de Luynes (name of the previous owner) |
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29th October 2018, 12:10 AM | #30 |
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I believe the jineta subject is quite more complex than initially thought so the best is to pile up all the relating info.
This is an interesting start even when in Spanish: http://www.alhambra-patronato.es/fil...sa_nazar__.pdf There are several archeological remnants usually not mentioned as ginetas, for example this islamic sword found at Guadalajara (the gilt one). For me, the closest relatives to the Nasrid jinetas come from the Mamluk State. And the Mamluk weapons come from Syria. And the Syrian weapons are derived from Bizantium. Interesting pictures in an article by Yotov: https://www.academia.edu/2328824/A_N...1th_CENTURIES_ A not anymore extant Jineta was painted by El Greco. You can compare it to the San Telmo Gineta and a Mamluk banner... You have mamluk swords with low quillions and others where the hilt surrounds the sheath mouth. Spheric pommels seem to be a characteristic of some mamluk and bizantine swords... We can go East to Xian an Tibet as well... Last edited by midelburgo; 29th October 2018 at 01:04 AM. |
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