ID Omani Jambiya

[archer]

Hello, I've been trying to find what this Jambiya is called it is not exactly typical
of other Omani styles since it is all metal with no horn hilt exposed. Steve

[Devadatta]

It's called Sayidi as I know, and was designed for royal family

I also have 2 of those

[Devadatta]

Here are mine

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by archer

Hello, I've been trying to find what this Jambiya is called it is not exactly typical
of other Omani styles since it is all metal with no horn hilt exposed. Steve

Salaams archer, This is an Indian design of Omani Khanjar that is somewhat newish...They appear to fill a niche in the tourist market See my thread please on The Omani Khanjar for a description of Royal Khanjar. The irony is that a previous wife of an Omani Sultan designed the Omani Royal Khanjar with an Indian decorative style in mind... The classic style would have 7 rings comprising the belt. I quite often see originals with all silver covering the hilt and there is another derivative royal hilt ~very similar~ for the old battle sword on...Kattara for comments. May I also point out that there is technically no such thing as an Omani Jambia nor as far as I know a Yemeni Khanjar ... sometimes I wish they were called the same ! Actually the origin of species is clouded in ancient history and is a subject worth tearing into ... The Omani Khanjar.
Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by Devadatta

Here are mine

Salaams Devadatta ~ Same provenance exactly as my description above. Indian manufacture in the form of Royal Omani Khanjars.. There are a lot of these about and the souk in Muscat has rather a lot I'm afraid. They appear to fill a niche in the tourist market...Regards Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[Devadatta]

Salaams Ibrahiim, thank you for your comment. The first one, however, came from Saudi Arabia and it's previous owner purchased this khanjar about 20 years ago. It also has a presentation case with coat of arms, - maybe it was a kind of gift or souvenir...

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by Devadatta

Salaams Ibrahiim, thank you for your comment. The first one, however, came from Saudi Arabia and it's previous owner purchased this khanjar about 20 years ago. It also has a presentation case with coat of arms, - maybe it was a kind of gift or souvenir...

Salaams Devadatta ~ Yes that is a nice presentation box ... in fact only today similar presentations were made for international visitors to a bank near me. Regards Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[archer]

Great info, thank you all. Thinking back some books on Indian weapons do include this type of Jambiya. Always, thought that curious. I thought this had some age due wear and damage to it, but, it may well be touristy. The Indian silver work is impressive. A few years back I had This one it also had a fully covered hilt and a bonus side knife.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by archer

Great info, thank you all. Thinking back some books on Indian weapons do include this type of Jambiya. Always, thought that curious. I thought this had some age due wear and damage to it, but, it may well be touristy. The Indian silver work is impressive. A few years back I had This one it also had a fully covered hilt and a bonus side knife.

Salaams archer, Khanjar is an interesting word; It is an Arab word, not Indian, thus the theory is that the Indian Khanjar developed from that rather than the other way round. Jambiyya on the other hand is not used in Oman and I have no idea of the words origin except to hazzard a guess at Himyaritic. (ancient Yemeni)
It has been suggested in a museum reference that the Indian Khanjar came into being in about the 16th Century. Omans is far older.
It is thus important to separate the descriptions (Omani and Yemeni and Indian) as they have very different designs though each has a curved blade etc.. and they are probably distant relatives...however by definition you just cannot have an Omani Jambiyya...
I think Search contains some detail also on work knives.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[archer]

I just found this photo in Arms And Armor by Paul. Usually, a Jambia dagger and sheath would have a have a shorter curve less of a J shape. This one is more like the Jambiya He mentions the blending of cultures and calls it a Jambia Omani. Now, I have a reading assignment

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by archer

I just found this photo in Arms And Armor by Paul. Usually, a Jambia dagger and sheath would have a have a shorter curve less of a J shape. This one is more like the Jambiya He mentions the blending of cultures and calls it a Jambia Omani. Now, I have a reading assignment

Salaams archer ~ This is a standard pattern "Baatina Khanjar" off the Oman Coastal area roughly between Muscat and Sohar. It is absolutely not an Omani jambiyya. No such animal exists... though clearly it does in the particular authors head. The Omani Khanjar.

Regards Ibrahiim al Balooshi..

[A.alnakkas]

Jambiya is an arabic word. Its Janbiya or Jannabiya and refers to the dagger worn on the side (sayyeds wear them that way)

Origin of the word is Janb which means "side"

[archer]

Salaams Ibrahiim, You must continue to explain origins and correct names for these daggers. I've included another Indian experts pages naming all as a group "Jambias" From DR. Pant. Stone, shows another group calling them "Jambiyas". Besides the experts using different names , collectors and worst yet E Bayers have combined names. Most of us say Katar when the Indian Culture calls them properly Jamadhars.

What is this Jambiyas proper name and origin?

[kahnjar1]

Hi Steve.
This dagger is described by the King Faisal Center for Research and Islamic Studies in Riyadh KSA, as a DHARIA dagger known as "Muqaffala" or "Mufarragha". The area origin is Western Saudi, Asir/Hijaz region. There is a book published by the K F Center, titled Weapons of the Islamic World/Swords and Armour. It illustrates an exhibition by them in 1991 and this type of dagger is illustrated.
I should also add that the Omani and Yemeni daggers shown in this exhibition are described as just that....daggers... and the term "Jambiya" and "Khanjar" do not feature. It would appear that the names used in the countries of origin are perhaps localised and probaly more likely to be correct. ....Omani=Khanjar and Yemen=Jambiya. Only those who live in those countries would know the true description applied. Early authors such as Cameron Stone may possibly have used some descriptive licence, which in more recent times will come to refined or corrected.
Regards Stu

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by kahnjar1

Hi Steve.
This dagger is described by the King Faisal Center for Research and Islamic Studies in Riyadh KSA, as a DHARIA dagger known as "Muqaffala" or "Mufarragha". The area origin is Western Saudi, Asir/Hijaz region. There is a book published by the K F Center, titled Weapons of the Islamic World/Swords and Armour. It illustrates an exhibition by them in 1991 and this type of dagger is illustrated.
I should also add that the Omani and Yemeni daggers shown in this exhibition are described as just that....daggers... and the term "Jambiya" and "Khanjar" do not feature. It would appear that the names used in the countries of origin are perhaps localised and probaly more likely to be correct. ....Omani=Khanjar and Yemen=Jambiya. Only those who live in those countries would know the true description applied. Early authors such as Cameron Stone may possibly have used some descriptive licence, which in more recent times will come to refined or corrected.
Regards Stu

Salaams khanjar 1 (Only those who live in those countries would know the true description applied.)

~The long debate about name of weapon etc etc is a complicated issue. However I dont think we are at the point of simply calling them all daggers... They are Khanjars in Oman and Jambiyya in Saudia and Yemen. Otherwise we would be calling everything a Knife... or the long ones all "Swords" .

~Khanjar is an Omani word; Jambiyya isnt. The linguistic specialists will probably look to Hemyaritic or Saudia or possibly Swahili for the Jambiyya word source. Whats in a name...? quite a lot I suspect... however annoying !
Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi

[kahnjar1]

Salaams Ibrahiim,
I was addressing Archers question as to the name for HIS dagger.....Dharia. As you will see, my comment of what OTHER daggers were described as in the Exhibition catalogue/book, was qualified by the names used in Oman and Yemen to describe their daggers....ie Oman=Khanjar....Yemen=Jambiya. As to the origins of the various terms, I leave for some other thread which may appear in the future, rather than confuse the original reason for THIS thread.. .

[A.alnakkas]

Salam Ibrahim,

I disagree. Jambiya is an abreviation from an arab word done by collectors. The original word is JANBIYA or Jannabiya and it means (the weapon tuck on the side) Anyone speaking arabic wouldnt have a hard time knowing what Janbiya is.

As for Khanjar, I disagree, infact I dont think its an Arab word. It is likely a persian word but I am not 100% certain. The word khanjar, unlike Janbiya is used by the following: Kurds, Persians, Turks (Hancer) northern Arabs. While Janbiya seems to be more focused on Yemen and the south Arabian places.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by A.alnakkas

Salam Ibrahim,

I disagree. Jambiya is an abreviation from an arab word done by collectors. The original word is JANBIYA or Jannabiya and it means (the weapon tuck on the side) Anyone speaking arabic wouldnt have a hard time knowing what Janbiya is.

As for Khanjar, I disagree, infact I dont think its an Arab word. It is likely a persian word but I am not 100% certain. The word khanjar, unlike Janbiya is used by the following: Kurds, Persians, Turks (Hancer) northern Arabs. While Janbiya seems to be more focused on Yemen and the south Arabian places.

Salaams A.alnakkas: That means 3 million Omani people have got it wrong then...? I will just go out and tell them Lofty ~ not be a moment...

Your detail on Janbiyya is of course perfectly correct though Khanjar appears to be Arabic.. perhaps a local Arabic word here...It occurs in the Funoon from an ancient dance completed with Khanjar so it goes back to 1400 years at least... The Khanjar did not appear in India til 500 years ago according to museum references and it is not an original Indian word.

The Khanjar and the Jambiyya (janbiya) are different styles clouded in time ...locked in design... from different countries.

Omanis dont have Jambiyyas and Yemenis dont have Khanjars. They dont have them and they dont use the words to describe their weapons. They do however know what each is and what both words mean !

Oman, however, uses Khanjar to describe Omani Khanjars and Yemen uses Jambiyya to describe Yemeni Jambiyyas.

We are all happy with that.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[A.alnakkas]

Originally Posted by Ibrahiim al Balooshi

Salaams A.alnakkas: That means 3 million Omani people have got it wrong then...? I will just go out and tell them Lofty ~ not be a moment...

Yes actually, they are wrong. The word Khanjar is a persian word. Like many many (even pre-islamic) persian words that were adopted by the arabs. This is nothing new.

The word cannot be reduced to any form like all arabic words. The only issue I have currently is not being able to back this up with academic research but then again nothing (Academic) can be found on the net. But I managed to find lists that include khanjar as one of the many words adopted from Persian. Regardless, I am a university student and we have Arabic professors, I'll get academic info soon just so you know am not pulling this one out of nowhere. :P

Originally Posted by Ibrahiim al Balooshi

Your detail on Janbiyya is of course perfectly correct though Khanjar appears to be Arabic.. perhaps a local Arabic word here...It occurs in the Funoon from an ancient dance completed with Khanjar so it goes back to 1400 years at least... The Khanjar did not appear in India til 500 years ago according to museum references and it is not an original Indian word.

I wasnt suggesting that Omani's use the term Janbiya. Rather that the term Janbiya (derived from jnb) is a pure arab word used by southern Arabs (fine, excluding omanis :-))

Also, whether India has this word or not is irrelevant since Indians have been adopting persian words aswell.

Now how about the Kurds and the Turks? or do they adopt the term from Oman?

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by A.alnakkas

Yes actually, they are wrong. The word Khanjar is a persian word. Like many many (even pre-islamic) persian words that were adopted by the arabs. This is nothing new.

The word cannot be reduced to any form like all arabic words. The only issue I have currently is not being able to back this up with academic research but then again nothing (Academic) can be found on the net. But I managed to find lists that include khanjar as one of the many words adopted from Persian. Regardless, I am a university student and we have Arabic professors, I'll get academic info soon just so you know am not pulling this one out of nowhere. :P



I wasnt suggesting that Omani's use the term Janbiya. Rather that the term Janbiya (derived from jnb) is a pure arab word used by southern Arabs (fine, excluding omanis :-))

Also, whether India has this word or not is irrelevant since Indians have been adopting persian words aswell.

Now how about the Kurds and the Turks? or do they adopt the term from Oman?

Salaams A.alnakkas ~ You may be right ?... I dont know Lofty you are the expert on Arabic Linguistics. I am still trying to fathom out where the word Kattara originated but I am not losing sleep about it. Passage of time ~ cross polination of linguistic terms ~ tribal tectonics~ incidental and accidental transmission of words through trade, war, geo political influence ~ who knows?
Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi

[A.alnakkas]

Salams Ibrahim (or is it Peter?) No, I am not suggesting that I am expert in arab linguistics, I studied it, but am no expert.

Kattara has more chance of being arabic then Khanjar.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by A.alnakkas

Salams Ibrahim (or is it Peter?) No, I am not suggesting that I am expert in arab linguistics, I studied it, but am no expert.

Kattara has more chance of being arabic then Khanjar.

Salaams A.alnakkas~ No Lofty I'm Ibrahiim al Balooshi... unless you wish to converse with my senior business executive who is on leave in Jamaica until March 10 ! If you pm me I can give you his e mail.

Some think Kattara is a derivative of I think to date about 6 possible misconstrued words ... even the engish "cutter"

Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[A.alnakkas]

Salam Ibrahim,

عبالي انت واحد ثاني السموحة ولد عمي:-)

Thats very possible regarding kattarah. But I wouldnt accept that immediately because there is an Arabic word "ktr كتر" that the following meanings can be derived from; the middle of (anything) the camel hump. The beam which hold the tent up. The hawdaj (female tent put over camels) and the high thing (high building etc)

So what do you think?

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by A.alnakkas

Salam Ibrahim,

عبالي انت واحد ثاني السموحة ولد عمي:-)

Thats very possible regarding kattarah. But I wouldnt accept that immediately because there is an Arabic word "ktr كتر" that the following meanings can be derived from; the middle of (anything) the camel hump. The beam which hold the tent up. The hawdaj (female tent put over camels) and the high thing (high building etc)

So what do you think?

Salaams A.alnakkas~ One thing is certain... Like frozen weapons systems the Arabic language gives a very accurate indicator to some of the detective work we are all doing.
I have a number of word search quandrys on my desk e.g. Khanjar, Kattarah, Sayf Yamani to name a few. Antony North explains fully the situation regarding weapons freeze on trusted old technology that has been retained in Arabia but I see no fully informative work on Arabic linguistics as obviously it exists as does slang and dialect particularly in regions with prior, poor communications such as Mussandam, Jebel Akhdar, The desert Rub al Qali and Yemen..

In this regard since the subject is Khanjar ~
Khanjar. Metropolitan Museum of Art ; "INDIA" by Stuart Cary Welch; Art and Culture 1300 to 1900. Page 303.

Quote "Khanjar is an Arabic word used in Islamic countries for different weapons etc. Khanjars were commonly used in India from about 1600."

I would rather like to push on with practical research at this point since I can see how contrasting viewpoints on word meaning will get us not very far and accepting the above commonly recognised facts we move forward.

As a tempting morsel of what is to come regarding the Omani Khanjar I am am about to unravel the mystery around the real reason for the bend in the scabbard so long erroneosly thought to be for balance and design. That may take some explaining ...but I am on it !

Regards Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[A.alnakkas]

Hmm, well hey it could be arabic afterall :P I guess 3 million Omanis have a chance of being right lol.

I'll try to find a lexicon about borrowed words and see if Khanjar is included. The word does not follow the grammatical rules that Arabic words follow.. so its confuses me :P

Let me know how your research turns out to be.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by A.alnakkas

Hmm, well hey it could be arabic afterall :P I guess 3 million Omanis have a chance of being right lol.

I'll try to find a lexicon about borrowed words and see if Khanjar is included. The word does not follow the grammatical rules that Arabic words follow.. so its confuses me :P

Let me know how your research turns out to be.

Salaams A.alnakkas I embarked once upon an Arabic translation of "Beowolf" ~ Now theres a translation headache ! In addition I am assisting correcting a Thesis on Arabic poetry. Forum research, however, carries on regardless... Regards Ibrahiim al Balooshi.