Help on small dagger

FenrisWolf · 8th September 2008, 11:02 PM

Picked this up a while ago. I suspect it's Italian, possible Venetian, late 17th early 18th century, but that's strictly guesswork, any help with identifying age and/or place of manufacture would be appreciated. Identifying the maker's mark would be a HUGE plus!

Paul Macdonald · 9th September 2008, 01:05 AM

Hi there!

That is a lovely wee knife there.

Given the double headed eagle and length fluted grip style, I would suggest Germanic origin, early - mid C17th.

All the best,

Macdonald

fernando · 9th September 2008, 01:25 AM

An outstanding piece. Congratulations.
Fernando

Montino Bourbon · 9th September 2008, 05:34 AM

I have a dagger with the same grip and fullered/sculpted blade. Been in my family a very long time. A really excellent blade.

Is yours thickened at the tip, as in armor-piercing?

Jim McDougall · 9th September 2008, 06:28 AM

The Italian assessment on this very attractive little dagger seems quite well placed. In "Armi Bianchi Italiene" (Boccia & Coelho, Milan, 1975) item #791 is strikingly similar with the grip shape and vertically fluted with several lighter colored bands, with similar bolster and blade, though does not have the elaborate artwork at the forte. This is shown as an 18th c. 'pugnale da caccia'. It notes 'Sardegna' as well.
The references indicate Buttin, so I checked the Buttin catalog (Rumilly, 1933) and plate III , #74 is an Italian poignard , 18th century with similar highly decorated forte, grip similar shape and fluted, bolsters similar; the cited example #64 also of similar type, and among a number of these Italian poignards 18th c.

I cant make out the makers mark here in the photos.
I'd like to know more about the double head bird image, which seems strategically important to this piece. As Paul has noted, the double head eagle is associated with Eastern European, Germanic and Russian symbolism and it seems there is some appearance of the other birds in Christian themes, though dont know if they appeared double headed as here. Possibly there may be Byzantine theme suggested, as the double head eagle was used to represent the west and east regions of the Empire.

FenrisWolf · 11th September 2008, 07:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Montino Bourbon

I have a dagger with the same grip and fullered/sculpted blade. Been in my family a very long time. A really excellent blade.

Is yours thickened at the tip, as in armor-piercing?

Not as such, more overall; blade is 3/16" thick at the cut work and only tapers slightly over the length of the blade, still 1/8" thick at less than 1/2" from the point. Overall dimensions: 4" hilt, 4 5/8" blade, 7/8" wide at widest point. Thanks everyone for all the information!

I will try and take a better picture of the proofmark tomorrow basically it's a stylized man's face with waxed moustachios, a long thin goatee, and long hair patred in the middle, with the brass proomark being the center of the face. The eyes, eyebrows and nose are indicated, but no mouth.

Gonzalo G · 11th September 2008, 07:31 AM

I think the doble headed eagle comes from the northern border of Italy, from the austrian House of the Habsburgs. Just on the other side of the fence of what it was the Republic of Venice. Looks like a woman´s dagger, or a dagger used on concealment.
Regards

Gonzalo

Atlantia · 12th September 2008, 12:27 AM

Have a look about half way down this page for a similar piece, with a little crossguard and not anywhere near as elaborate:
Dagger

Atlantia · 12th September 2008, 03:22 PM

Here's another similar one in a book.

It's described as: Peasant knife from southern Europe with bone grip embellished with small brass studs. Overall length 13 inches. Blade 8 inches. Spanish or Italian early 19th century.

They certainly seem to be a southern European style. Yours seems rather special compared to these others.

Regards
Gene

Jim McDougall · 12th September 2008, 08:12 PM

Nicely done Gene! That center dagger sure looks like the form, and it would seem to place Southern Europe. I think one of the most difficult identifications is between Spanish and Italian weapons with the Spanish provinces there. Whatever the case they are always beautiful examples!

Paul Macdonald · 12th September 2008, 09:05 PM

Great research coming in from all!

This certainly seems to be a specific form of European dagger. I`d like to know if there was a specific name for it. Shall contact Italian friends and ask!

All the best,

Macdonald

Atlantia · 13th September 2008, 03:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

Nicely done Gene! That center dagger sure looks like the form, and it would seem to place Southern Europe. I think one of the most difficult identifications is between Spanish and Italian weapons with the Spanish provinces there. Whatever the case they are always beautiful examples!

Thanks Jim, Its nice to be of some small help for a change, instead of my endless newbie questions about ethnic stuff! :-)

Regards
Gene

Gonzalo G · 16th September 2008, 08:04 AM

There are still a conexion among the spanish Habsburgs and the south of Itay. The decorations often survive in spite of the pollitical changes.
Regards

Gonzalo

8th September 2008, 11:02 PM	#1
FenrisWolf Member Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 181	Help on small dagger Picked this up a while ago. I suspect it's Italian, possible Venetian, late 17th early 18th century, but that's strictly guesswork, any help with identifying age and/or place of manufacture would be appreciated. Identifying the maker's mark would be a HUGE plus!

9th September 2008, 05:34 AM	#4
Montino Bourbon Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Santa Barbara, California Posts: 301	Italian. I have a dagger with the same grip and fullered/sculpted blade. Been in my family a very long time. A really excellent blade. Is yours thickened at the tip, as in armor-piercing?

9th September 2008, 06:28 AM	#5
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,951	The Italian assessment on this very attractive little dagger seems quite well placed. In "Armi Bianchi Italiene" (Boccia & Coelho, Milan, 1975) item #791 is strikingly similar with the grip shape and vertically fluted with several lighter colored bands, with similar bolster and blade, though does not have the elaborate artwork at the forte. This is shown as an 18th c. 'pugnale da caccia'. It notes 'Sardegna' as well. The references indicate Buttin, so I checked the Buttin catalog (Rumilly, 1933) and plate III , #74 is an Italian poignard , 18th century with similar highly decorated forte, grip similar shape and fluted, bolsters similar; the cited example #64 also of similar type, and among a number of these Italian poignards 18th c. I cant make out the makers mark here in the photos. I'd like to know more about the double head bird image, which seems strategically important to this piece. As Paul has noted, the double head eagle is associated with Eastern European, Germanic and Russian symbolism and it seems there is some appearance of the other birds in Christian themes, though dont know if they appeared double headed as here. Possibly there may be Byzantine theme suggested, as the double head eagle was used to represent the west and east regions of the Empire. Last edited by Jim McDougall; 9th September 2008 at 08:14 AM.

9th September 2008, 01:05 AM	#2
Paul Macdonald Member Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: Edinburgh, Scotland Posts: 48	Hi there! That is a lovely wee knife there. Given the double headed eagle and length fluted grip style, I would suggest Germanic origin, early - mid C17th. All the best, Macdonald

9th September 2008, 01:25 AM	#3
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	An outstanding piece. Congratulations. Fernando

11th September 2008, 07:31 AM	#7
Gonzalo G Member Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Nothern Mexico Posts: 458	I think the doble headed eagle comes from the northern border of Italy, from the austrian House of the Habsburgs. Just on the other side of the fence of what it was the Republic of Venice. Looks like a woman´s dagger, or a dagger used on concealment. Regards Gonzalo

12th September 2008, 12:27 AM	#8
Atlantia Member Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: The Sharp end Posts: 2,928	Have a look about half way down this page for a similar piece, with a little crossguard and not anywhere near as elaborate: Dagger

12th September 2008, 03:22 PM	#9
Atlantia Member Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: The Sharp end Posts: 2,928	Here's another similar one in a book. It's described as: Peasant knife from southern Europe with bone grip embellished with small brass studs. Overall length 13 inches. Blade 8 inches. Spanish or Italian early 19th century. They certainly seem to be a southern European style. Yours seems rather special compared to these others. Regards Gene

12th September 2008, 08:12 PM	#10
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,951	Nicely done Gene! That center dagger sure looks like the form, and it would seem to place Southern Europe. I think one of the most difficult identifications is between Spanish and Italian weapons with the Spanish provinces there. Whatever the case they are always beautiful examples!

12th September 2008, 09:05 PM	#11
Paul Macdonald Member Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: Edinburgh, Scotland Posts: 48	Great research coming in from all! This certainly seems to be a specific form of European dagger. I`d like to know if there was a specific name for it. Shall contact Italian friends and ask! All the best, Macdonald

16th September 2008, 08:04 AM	#13
Gonzalo G Member Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Nothern Mexico Posts: 458	There are still a conexion among the spanish Habsburgs and the south of Itay. The decorations often survive in spite of the pollitical changes. Regards Gonzalo