Heavy 18th c. European sword

erlikhan · 30th June 2007, 10:02 AM

hi. can anybody please identify this sword's nationality and age?
On the spine writes "peter mumm klingen fabriquant sohlingen". peter mumm is a blades firm which began operating in 1695? and continued in 18th c. as far as I can understand from the pages in Germen I was only able to find about on the web. Coat of arms on the blade looks like Russian to me,correct?
Scabbard is thick solid steel covered on wood,making it nearly as heavy as the blade itself.

regards

Jim McDougall · 30th June 2007, 03:37 PM

This appears to be one of the famed Prussian 'Blucher sabres' that if not mistaken were the German counterpart of the British M1796 light cavalry sabres. While I do not have my resources handy, there was a book written on these by Gerhard Seifert. I believe best source of data would be "Cut and Thrust Weapons" (Wagner) and others with significant material on European regulation swords. The Solingen swordmaking families carried on for many generations, and the names as well as marks used by the early makers carried on as trademarks and symbols of quality there well into later centuries.
I am not certain, but am inclined to agree on the double head eagle being Russian, although it seems that it was used in the Austro-Hungarian Empire as well (can anyone please elaborate on that?

Looks like a sound example, and the elongated rectangular langets are characteristically German, and the sabre would likely be from about c.1811.
Very nice Napoleonic period piece! If this piece is in fact carrying a Russian cypher, even more fantastic!

Best regards,
Jim

kronckew · 30th June 2007, 04:41 PM

austro-hungarian impirial eagle:

Rusiian imperial eagle

very similar, except for the breast shield, sadly lacking on the sword....

katana · 30th June 2007, 07:06 PM

The Russian perhaps looks more likely ...the Austro Hungarian eagle is carrying a mace and sword in the right talon, the Russian only one object... like the engraving on the sword. But I do not know how accurately the coat of arms would be copied

kronckew · 30th June 2007, 07:30 PM

just to put another fly in the ointment, here's the imperial byzantine flag:

i note the russian and austrian ones always show both eagles wearing crowns as well as the large one above them all, but the byzantine one, and the sword's one do not....also no breast shield on the sword or the eastern roman flag.

the sword is a bit new to be byzantine tho.....

a quick troll around for bicephalous eagles also shows that the holy roman empire used it with either nothing in the claws, a sword in the right, orb in the left, or a sceptre in the right, or even a sword in both claws.....the eagles heads normally uncrowned, but occasionally with a background ring of some sort, like the sword.

maybe one of the electors (who were mostly german) issued similar swords and one of his soldiers doodled a crude image on his blade whilst having nothing better to do (except hiding from his sergeant of course).

the HRE never actually died out......it's still around

(the current emperor is Emperor Charles VIII) and it's college of heraldry is even on line.....http://www.imperialcollegeofheraldry.org/

bicephalous eagles were also used by many of the balkan states and even greece. albania has it on their flag, serbia and montenegro also have used this symbol, sometimes with the orb and sword or sceptre.

the possibilities seem endless.....

ariel · 1st July 2007, 04:29 AM

The engraving of the double-headed eagle on the sword is quite careless; likely it was done at the request of the owner and by a not very skilled smith.
I vote for Austro- Hungarian. The curliqued filling of the body somehow does not look Russian to me. Strangely, it reminds me of Greek or Balkan blade engravings ( I am having a cold, and a mix of fever and over-the-counter concoctions may explain my hallucinations

)

Jim McDougall · 1st July 2007, 06:45 AM

Thanks very much for the very colorful input guys!!! Especially Ariels hallucinations!!

I think everybodys observations all sound extremely plausible, and I very much appreciate the detail in noting the variations applied to these heraldic eagles.

It seems often these military blades have interestingly applied cyphers and motif on the blades, often loosely applied interpretations of regalia and heraldic devices. With the obvious degree of license seen with such decoration, it would be difficult to assign the sabre to a particular country with any certainty. Given the commercial enterprise of Solingen, this sabre might have found its way to any of the powers suggested, and the loosely applied eagle engraved on the blade. Typologically, it remains in my opinion, one of the Prussian sabres as suggested.

All best regards,
Jim

erlikhan · 1st July 2007, 09:29 PM

Thanks for all comments. About the coat of the arms, please note that the same figure exists on the other face of the blade too. An expert has said that it was not chiselled, but etched with acid work, but so well done that it looks almost as good as chiselling. That is what he says after checking with magnifier.. At the moment,the sword is in his workshop for hilt restoration,so I can't check if the two coat of arms are exactly each other's copy. If it is correct, perhaps shows that it was done in factory included in the contract, or many swords were armory serial etched after delivery from the factory.
I found a Blucher sword's pictures. Here is the link. http://www.collectorsfirearms.com/ad...hp?itemID=5972 . The blade looks almost same, but hilt and hand guard of my swords look more crude and primitive. The one at the website has machine stamped marks, while mine has only a crudely -but certainly not newly- hand carved "Nr:50" or something like that on its scabbard. Could samples of a single model differ so?

Jim McDougall · 2nd July 2007, 06:05 AM

Hi Erlikhan,
Thank you for the link to the Blucher sabre that you included. In looking at the actual form, it is clear that these had distinctly different elements in the langet and the quillon. One thing about the langets on yours is the elongated rectangle shape that was key in the 1788 sabres in England as well as in Germany. The grip shape, langets and the scabbard without drag may suggest this to be either an early version of the sabre that became the M1811 Blucher sabre, or of course, quite possibly one that was produced in either Austria or Hungary. I think a look at Wagners "Cut and Thrust Weapons" might reveal more.

In any case, this seems a sound example of a turn of the century cavalry sabre from Europe, and beautifully 'unrestored'

I like these fighting weapons left pretty much as is, aside from checking any live rust etc.

All the best,
Jim

30th June 2007, 10:02 AM	#1
erlikhan Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Istanbul Posts: 452	Heavy 18th c. European sword hi. can anybody please identify this sword's nationality and age? On the spine writes "peter mumm klingen fabriquant sohlingen". peter mumm is a blades firm which began operating in 1695? and continued in 18th c. as far as I can understand from the pages in Germen I was only able to find about on the web. Coat of arms on the blade looks like Russian to me,correct? Scabbard is thick solid steel covered on wood,making it nearly as heavy as the blade itself. regards Attached Images

30th June 2007, 07:30 PM	#5
kronckew Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Room 101, Glos. UK Posts: 4,187	just to put another fly in the ointment, here's the imperial byzantine flag: i note the russian and austrian ones always show both eagles wearing crowns as well as the large one above them all, but the byzantine one, and the sword's one do not....also no breast shield on the sword or the eastern roman flag. the sword is a bit new to be byzantine tho..... a quick troll around for bicephalous eagles also shows that the holy roman empire used it with either nothing in the claws, a sword in the right, orb in the left, or a sceptre in the right, or even a sword in both claws.....the eagles heads normally uncrowned, but occasionally with a background ring of some sort, like the sword. maybe one of the electors (who were mostly german) issued similar swords and one of his soldiers doodled a crude image on his blade whilst having nothing better to do (except hiding from his sergeant of course). the HRE never actually died out......it's still around (the current emperor is Emperor Charles VIII) and it's college of heraldry is even on line.....http://www.imperialcollegeofheraldry.org/ bicephalous eagles were also used by many of the balkan states and even greece. albania has it on their flag, serbia and montenegro also have used this symbol, sometimes with the orb and sword or sceptre. the possibilities seem endless..... Last edited by kronckew; 30th June 2007 at 08:40 PM.

30th June 2007, 03:37 PM	#2
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,957	This appears to be one of the famed Prussian 'Blucher sabres' that if not mistaken were the German counterpart of the British M1796 light cavalry sabres. While I do not have my resources handy, there was a book written on these by Gerhard Seifert. I believe best source of data would be "Cut and Thrust Weapons" (Wagner) and others with significant material on European regulation swords. The Solingen swordmaking families carried on for many generations, and the names as well as marks used by the early makers carried on as trademarks and symbols of quality there well into later centuries. I am not certain, but am inclined to agree on the double head eagle being Russian, although it seems that it was used in the Austro-Hungarian Empire as well (can anyone please elaborate on that? Looks like a sound example, and the elongated rectangular langets are characteristically German, and the sabre would likely be from about c.1811. Very nice Napoleonic period piece! If this piece is in fact carrying a Russian cypher, even more fantastic! Best regards, Jim

30th June 2007, 04:41 PM	#3
kronckew Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Room 101, Glos. UK Posts: 4,187	austro-hungarian impirial eagle: Rusiian imperial eagle very similar, except for the breast shield, sadly lacking on the sword....

30th June 2007, 07:06 PM	#4
katana Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Kent Posts: 2,653	The Russian perhaps looks more likely ...the Austro Hungarian eagle is carrying a mace and sword in the right talon, the Russian only one object... like the engraving on the sword. But I do not know how accurately the coat of arms would be copied

1st July 2007, 04:29 AM	#6
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	The engraving of the double-headed eagle on the sword is quite careless; likely it was done at the request of the owner and by a not very skilled smith. I vote for Austro- Hungarian. The curliqued filling of the body somehow does not look Russian to me. Strangely, it reminds me of Greek or Balkan blade engravings ( I am having a cold, and a mix of fever and over-the-counter concoctions may explain my hallucinations )

1st July 2007, 06:45 AM	#7
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,957	Thanks very much for the very colorful input guys!!! Especially Ariels hallucinations!! I think everybodys observations all sound extremely plausible, and I very much appreciate the detail in noting the variations applied to these heraldic eagles. It seems often these military blades have interestingly applied cyphers and motif on the blades, often loosely applied interpretations of regalia and heraldic devices. With the obvious degree of license seen with such decoration, it would be difficult to assign the sabre to a particular country with any certainty. Given the commercial enterprise of Solingen, this sabre might have found its way to any of the powers suggested, and the loosely applied eagle engraved on the blade. Typologically, it remains in my opinion, one of the Prussian sabres as suggested. All best regards, Jim

1st July 2007, 09:29 PM	#8
erlikhan Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Istanbul Posts: 452	Thanks for all comments. About the coat of the arms, please note that the same figure exists on the other face of the blade too. An expert has said that it was not chiselled, but etched with acid work, but so well done that it looks almost as good as chiselling. That is what he says after checking with magnifier.. At the moment,the sword is in his workshop for hilt restoration,so I can't check if the two coat of arms are exactly each other's copy. If it is correct, perhaps shows that it was done in factory included in the contract, or many swords were armory serial etched after delivery from the factory. I found a Blucher sword's pictures. Here is the link. http://www.collectorsfirearms.com/ad...hp?itemID=5972 . The blade looks almost same, but hilt and hand guard of my swords look more crude and primitive. The one at the website has machine stamped marks, while mine has only a crudely -but certainly not newly- hand carved "Nr:50" or something like that on its scabbard. Could samples of a single model differ so?

2nd July 2007, 06:05 AM	#9
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,957	Hi Erlikhan, Thank you for the link to the Blucher sabre that you included. In looking at the actual form, it is clear that these had distinctly different elements in the langet and the quillon. One thing about the langets on yours is the elongated rectangle shape that was key in the 1788 sabres in England as well as in Germany. The grip shape, langets and the scabbard without drag may suggest this to be either an early version of the sabre that became the M1811 Blucher sabre, or of course, quite possibly one that was produced in either Austria or Hungary. I think a look at Wagners "Cut and Thrust Weapons" might reveal more. In any case, this seems a sound example of a turn of the century cavalry sabre from Europe, and beautifully 'unrestored' I like these fighting weapons left pretty much as is, aside from checking any live rust etc. All the best, Jim