BUNTEL MAYAT

[A. G. Maisey]

Words have defined meanings, and where a word appears in two languages, but carries different meanings in those languages, it it easy for confusion to arise, especially where the two languages concerned are often used interchangeably by the speakers of those languages.

Dictionaries can be useful in clarification of precisely what is meant in the context of subject matter and language usage.

The pamor motif:- BUNTEL MAYAT, and the use of the word MAYAT.

The pamor motif "buntel mayat" is named in the Javanese language.

The words used to name it must not be understood as Indonesian, but must be understood as Javanese.

In Indonesian "buntel mayat", and also "buntel mayit" both have the meaning of "corpse wrapping". The words "mayat" and "mayit" are simply variant pronunciations for "human corpse".

In Javanese "buntel mayit" has the meaning of "corpse wrapping".

In Javanese "buntel mayat" has the meaning of "slanted wrapping".

The word "mayat" has the alternative meaning of "slightly sloping", and in Old Javanese it meant "to work hard".

The name of the pamor motif is "buntel mayat", the language used is Javanese, not Indonesian, thus the meaning of "buntel mayat" is "slanted wrapping". This meaning perfectly describes the pamor to which it refers.

When we are using the words of keris terminology, we are always using Javanese words, not Indonesian words.
Sometimes a Javanese word will also be an Indonesian word, and sometimes the meaning of that word in Indonesian will be the same, or similar, to its meaning in Javanese.
But this is not always the case.


I believe it is important to clarify the way in which the word "mayat" must be understood. Confusion in a correct understanding of this word has led to continuing confusion amongst people who do not understand either Javanese or Indonesian, as well as people who are native speakers of Javanese.

[Alam Shah]

Thank you for the clarification.

To make matters worse, many old keris books are found with this translation error. Newer books which based on the old books as reference sources migrated the errors as well. If only these corrections can be made accordingly, that would ease the confusion (a little).

[ganjawulung]

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

The pamor motif "buntel mayat" is named in the Javanese language.

The words used to name it must not be understood as Indonesian, but must be understood as Javanese.

In Indonesian "buntel mayat", and also "buntel mayit" both have the meaning of "corpse wrapping". The words "mayat" and "mayit" are simply variant pronunciations for "human corpse".

In Javanese "buntel mayit" has the meaning of "corpse wrapping".

In Javanese "buntel mayat" has the meaning of "slanted wrapping".

The word "mayat" has the alternative meaning of "slightly sloping", and in Old Javanese it meant "to work hard".

The name of the pamor motif is "buntel mayat", the language used is Javanese, not Indonesian, thus the meaning of "buntel mayat" is "slanted wrapping". This meaning perfectly describes the pamor to which it refers.

I believe it is important to clarify the way in which the word "mayat" must be understood. Confusion in a correct understanding of this word has led to continuing confusion amongst people who do not understand either Javanese or Indonesian, as well as people who are native speakers of Javanese.

Javanese language has much plasticity in its words. Though, usually Javanese words derived from reality, simple reality that everybody could imagine what the word to say about.

Relating to the topic in this thread, I still believed that the word "mayat" or "mayit" related to certain reality, daily reality. And that's the "corpse". The Javanese probably wanted to say, a "slanted pamor" as if you are wrapping a corpse. And look! Pamor "buntel mayit" shows that. The pamor is like "wrapping corpse" in a "slanted but continued wrapping". Am I wrong?

But that's true, maybe not the same treatment to another "mayat" using. I can not see yet, is there any correlation between "dhapur jangkung mayat" of luk 3 keris, and "mayat" or human dead body in the daily Javanese life...

[Raden Usman Djogja]

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

In Javanese "buntel mayit" has the meaning of "corpse wrapping".

In Javanese "buntel mayat" has the meaning of "slanted wrapping".

The word "mayat" has the alternative meaning of "slightly sloping", and in Old Javanese it meant "to work hard".

Alan,

I agree that the pamor name is "bunthel mayat" rather than "bunthel mayit". And, "mayat" has far different intrinsic meaning from "mayit". "mayat" means hopeful while "mayit" means hopeless.

We can find the old keris with pamor motive of "bunthel mayit". At that time keris was made, Javanese people still burnt corpse. Perhaps, no Javanese wrapped corpse as today practices. So, the term of "bunthel mayit" came later, but, it led to recent fallacy amongst most keris lovers.

I still do not want to collect a keris with "bunthel mayat" motive. Not because I have bad perception to this pamor motive. I just dont want people look strange on me after watching my keris. The javanese people have unique ways to judge.

Two keris motives, I should think twice if I wanna buy: firstly, "bunthel mayit" and secondly, "umyang". About umyang, does anyone want to share its picture. I do really want to have but...yeah... I dont want most of my acquintances think that I have "pesugihan (translation in English please?).

Usmen

[A. G. Maisey]

I take the elements of this discussion to be:-

1. the correct name of the pamor in question

2. the correct meanings of words

3. the way in which those words are interpreted.


1. Correct name of the pamor.

In most, if not all recent publications this pamor name will be given as "buntel mayit":- "corpse wrapping".

More than twenty years ago I was told that this name is incorrect, and that the correct name is "buntel mayat":- "slanted wrapping".

I was told this by Empu Suparman Supawijaya (alm.), who at the time was a man in his 60's, whose experience with keris went back to before WWII, and who was a part of the Karaton Surakarta hierarchy.

In the matter of this correct name, I choose to believe my teacher, rather than to follow the popular trend.

I choose to do this for two reasons:-

A) I have absolute faith in my teacher's traditional knowledge.

B) The name "buntel mayat" is logically supportable, the name "buntel mayit" is poetically, or philosophically supportable. I prefer logic.

Apart from these two reasons, an argument for "buntel mayat" can also be built on a historical foundation, drawing upon the case of Lombok.


2. Correct word meanings.

In the Javanese language "mayat" means "slanted, or sloping", "mayit" means "human corpse".

There can be no dispute about this.

In Indonesian "mayat" and "mayit" both mean "human corpse".

There can be no dispute about this.

Keris terms are rendered in the Javanese language, not the Indonesian language.

If the pamor name is "corpse wrapping", it must be rendered as "buntel mayit".

If the pamor name is "slanted wrapping" it must be rendered as "buntel mayat".

The name cannot be rendered as "buntel mayat", and its English language meaning given as "corpse wrapping".


3. Interpretation of the pamor.

The words mayat and mayit are very close in sound, and in speech can probably only be differentiated by the listener when taken in context. Taken out of context it would be difficult for any but the most expert user of Javanese to differentiate one from the other.This similarity in sound is probably the root of the confusion, and taken together with the well known Javanese propensity to play with the spoken form of the language, and the poetic, symbolic, and philosophical factors inherrent in interpretation of the name as "buntel mayit", rather than "buntel mayat", it is easy to understand the foundation of the current interpretation of the name.

Interpretation in many matters, and this could be one of those matters, is always an individual prerogative.

If one wishes to interpret "slanted wrapping" as "corpse wrapping", then, that is a matter for that person, or those people.

However, if one wishes to name a pamor as "corpse wrapping", rather than "slanted wrapping", and one wishes to do this in the Javanese language, then one is obliged to use the words "buntel mayit", rather than "buntel mayat".

[Newsteel]

Good explaination,

Unike dapur, where it's pakem (blueprint) usually can be found within kratons. Pamor is totally a different thing.

Buntel Mayit/Mayat.... how can we be sure if one empu wants to call his pamor "corpse wrapping" and the other empu wants to name it "slanted wrapping"?

[ganjawulung]

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

...Interpretation in many matters, and this could be one of those matters, is always an individual prerogative.

If one wishes to interpret "slanted wrapping" as "corpse wrapping", then, that is a matter for that person, or those people.

However, if one wishes to name a pamor as "corpse wrapping", rather than "slanted wrapping", and one wishes to do this in the Javanese language, then one is obliged to use the words "buntel mayit", rather than "buntel mayat".

Bambang Harsrinuksmo: (In Ensiklopedi Keris)
Buntel Mayit or some people say it as Mbuntel Mayit is pamor motive (I am trying to translate) that forms like wrappings of clothes on the whole keris blade, spear, arrow or sword
It is said that Buntel Mayit has no good tuah (influence?) and bring unfortune to the owner. Though, it will be good for strong people. This pamor would even make him easier to get rezeki (good living?)..
Mr Bambang didn't mention the "buntel mayat"

Also Bambang Harsri's opinion:
Mayat in dhapur, means a keris which its blade position on its ganja is very slanted. (What Alan said is right)
But Mr Bambang wrote, that dhapur "mayat miring" or (slanted corpse? Maybe this is nonsense. Or slanted slanting?) is a name of straight dhapur which the position of its blade is very slanted to the ganja.. and so on.
So this dhapur bears two "adjective" (mayat means also miring or slanted) mayat and miring (slanted and slanted)..

Mr Haryono Guritno (in Keris Jawa)
He mentioned clearly in the "List of pamor names", buntel mayit as corpse wrapping. (Page 211). But he mentioned too in "List of Dhapur names" that mayat means "slanted transition but not at a sudden". He mentioned too, the dhapur "mayat miring" as a keris with a slanted blade..

This is from "Pakem Kacurigan" or "Keris Pakem" which was in Javanese language and published by Penerbit Sadubudi Solo (1938). It mentioned name of dhapur "mayat miring" as a name of slanted keris with one sogokan, one gusen. (page 11). And "dhapur mayat" as a 3 luks keris with sekar kacang, rear sogokan, sraweyan, ri pandhan, greneng.
"Pakem Kacurigan" also said: "Winastan pamor buntel mayit, .. etc" (It called as pamor buntel mayit, is a pamor that wrapping all the blade from one edge to another edge in the whole blade. (Not mention the "buntel mayat"..)

I just give this information to you, if not confusion...

[A. G. Maisey]

Yes, all this could easily lead to confusion, but its really quite simple if one applies analytical objectivity.

It becomes simply a matter of what one wishes to say, bearing in mind that the language that one's wish must be expressed in is Javanese.

Is the pamor name buntel mayit, or buntel mayat?

Well, all the sources that call it buntel mayit are recent, and I know of no literary sources that are sufficiently old for us to be able to say with any certainty that the original name is buntel mayat---or something different.

I guess it comes down to where one wishes to place one's trust.

However, one thing is very clear:- it cannot be called "buntel mayat", and the English meaning be given as "corpse wrapping".

Of course, the question remains as to why this same pamor should be regarded as a very positive one in Bali and Lombok, where it bears a different name. Even without my belief in Empu Suparman, were I to consider this contradiction in an objective fashion, I would be forced to the conclusion that the pamor motif entered Bali in ancient times, prior to the emergence of the Modern Javanese language taking hold in Jawa itself, and prior to the development of the present Javanese keris belief system.

Then again, perhaps we should ask ourselves why any Javanese empu would set out to produce a pamor that no sane person would have in his house.

Interesting fuel for thought.

[ganjawulung]

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

... Of course, the question remains as to why this same pamor should be regarded as a very positive one in Bali and Lombok, where it bears a different name. Even without my belief in Empu Suparman, were I to consider this contradiction in an objective fashion, I would be forced to the conclusion that the pamor motif entered Bali in ancient times, prior to the emergence of the Modern Javanese language taking hold in Jawa itself, and prior to the development of the present Javanese keris belief system.

Then again, perhaps we should ask ourselves why any Javanese empu would set out to produce a pamor that no sane person would have in his house.

Interesting fuel for thought.

This time, I remember Shakespeare's phrase of "What is in a name?" Buntel Mayit is "dreadful" for some Javanese people, but pamor "Tambangan" and "Tambangan Badung" (in Lombok, according to Lalu Djelenga's book for this same pamor) is very good for dignity and bravery, heroism... Maybe it was a matter of local sentiment, which based on history, or certain reality in the past that I don't know yet. Primordial matters? I don't know either..

At least, pamor Buntel Mayit (and pamorless "keleng") is the favorite pamor of my keris-friend, Gus Im or Mr Hashim Wahid, the "author" of punk rocker's keris. Of course, Gus Im is a Javanese...

Ganjawulung

[A. G. Maisey]

Do we know what "tambangan Badung" means?

I guess its Sasak?

Its surely not ---"the Badung ferry"---is it?

How about Badung Rope?

Anyone speak Sasak?

[David]

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

Then again, perhaps we should ask ourselves why any Javanese empu would set out to produce a pamor that no sane person would have in his house.

This is the question that i have always asked myself.
Ganja quotes Harsrinuksmo as saying "It is said that Buntel Mayit has no good tuah (influence?) and bring unfortune to the owner. Though, it will be good for strong people."
Firstly this is a contradiction. If it will be good for some strong people then it must have some good tuah. Why would anyone commission a keris to be made for themselves that would destroy them over time?
It seems very likely to me that the negative reputation this pamor has received in Jawa is due to a confusion and misunderstanding of words.

[ganjawulung]

Originally Posted by David

It seems very likely to me that the negative reputation this pamor has received in Jawa is due to a confusion and misunderstanding of words.

David,
I think not merely due to a confusion and misunderstanding of words. Javanese people used to relate their opinions with reality, daily and personal reality. This is a hypothesis: There was maybe a misfortune experience of certain Javanese authority in the past (usually, he was king or ruler) relating to such pamor. So, maybe it was a kind of "authoritarian truth". What the ruler's saying (based on his own experience), regarded by certain Javanese people -- to be the truth.

I will try to find example of this. Once I've found such case, while I was reading the Babad Tanah Jawi (a Historiography of Jawa). Someone said in the babad: "Don't use such and such keris, because it will bring misfortune for everybody...," I will try to find this example, in Babad Tanah Djawi (Republished in Javanese latin character, by a Groningen Dutch publisher around 1938).

Ganjawulung

[ganjawulung]

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

Do we know what "tambangan Badung" means?

I guess its Sasak?

Its surely not ---"the Badung ferry"---is it?

How about Badung Rope?

Anyone speak Sasak?

Dear Alan,

What you just said is right, that "tambangan" or the Javanese called it "buntel mayit" is a favorite pamor in Lombok. According to Lalu Djelenga's book, there are four classifications of pamor: (1) Pamor Dasar (basic pamor), (2) Pamor Wujud (combination pamor, such as Kukus Angin Pusut/Pusaran Air or in Javanese term: Lintang Kemukus) and (3) Pamor Khusus or (Special Pamor, such as wayang figure in a blade etc), and (4) Pamor Jadi or in Javanese term known as "Pamor Tiban" (Given Pamors, such as Raja Gundala in Java)

Pamor Tambangan found in the Pamor Dasar. It consists of such kinds: (1) Vertical motives pamor -- kinds of Adeg Sapu which will bring good fortune, tranquility, love and honesty to the owner, (2) Crossline motives pamor -- to be called Tambangan -- believed will bring bravery, self confidence, dignity, (3) Spotted or circle lines motives pamor, they called it Mata Kolo -- believed will bring safety and good for "tolak bala" (against bad influence?).

From these Pamor Dasar, then it was developped as many kinds of sole-pamor or combination-pamor. The three Pamor Dasar, are the favorite choiice of Lombok keris community.

So Tambangan Badung is a kind of developped pamor, not merely basic pamor. I will post later the example of Tambangan Badung. Or maybe someone will post it?

About "Keris Technology", Lalu Djelenga wrote that "cikal bakal" (the nucleus?) of Empu in Lombok, came from Java. Especially, in the Majapahit era. There were two famous Majapahit empus, Ki Supagati and Ki Supamandrangi. When one of the most important pusaka of Majapahit called Sumelang Gandring was lost, King of Majapahit ordered the two empus to search the pusaka. Ki Supagati to the west (maybe up to Sumatra?), and Ki Supamandrangi to the east until Bali and Lombok.

In each places where the empu once stayed, he made besalen (place for keris making, with purpose to spy where was the lost pusaka). Ki Supamandrangi -- according to Lalu Djelenga -- then stayed in Blambangan (East Java), opened "perapen" or "besalen" there, and changed his name as Ki Pitrang. Pitrang was married with local woman, and then had a son named Jaka Sura etc.

In Lombok philosophy on keris, according to Lalu Djelenga -- "there are no bad pamor". What happened is, someone is not suitable with such and such pamor. Or certain pamor, is suitable for such and such people with certain position or rank (Pls correct my English if I'm wrong).

Ganjawulung

[A. G. Maisey]

All very interesting, Ganja, but it does not answer the question.

What is the meaning of "tambangan Badung"?

We know that in Javanese "tambang" is a big, thick, heavy rope---I can see a distinct relationship between this and this pamor name.

We also know that "tambang" can mean a mine.

Add "an" and get "tambangan", and we have a ferry.

Then there's "Badung".

Is it a reference to the old South Bali Kingdom, or does "badung" have a separate meaning in Sasak?

Anybody understand Sasak?


Your suggestion of linking the Javanese name to an historical incident may have some merit, but I very much doubt that your search will be successful.

However, there could be a logical link between this pamor and keris failure in a use situation. The method of manufacture---without a core--- means that you have a series of weld joints along the length of the blade, where the bar has been twisted, and then forged flat.This will create an inherrently weaker blade than one made with a core, or even with an inserted edge.

I agree with you that Javanese people relate their opinions to reality, as does the bulk of mankind.

But they also relate their opinions, and their life philosophies to superstition and the animist foundations of the culture. Again, not unlike the rural societies of Europe until comparatively recently. If the weft of Javanese society is reality, then the warp is traditional belief.

In the Javanese case this situation is complicated further by the fact that Javanese is not a standard language. It is a vehicle of communication that is subjected by its users to individual idiosyncratic manipulation.A number of researchers have commented on the propensity of speakers of Javanese to play with the language as if it were a personal possession.Further, it is a language that in its common form (ngoko) is remarkably unsuited to written transmission.

If I look at an example of pamor buntel mayat, and I wish to name that pamor, with no preknowledge of what it may be called, and I wish to use the Javanese language to name it, what choices of names do I have?
The one name that must stand above any other possible choices is "slanted wrapping"---"buntel mayat".This is an accurate physical description of the motif.

Now, how long will it be in a society where people habitually play with words, before "mayat" becomes "mayit"?

Factor in the intensification of Kejawen philosophies and the growth of the modern Javanese keris belief system since the first half of the 19th century, and it would probably be surprising if "mayat" did not morph into "mayit".


Another good choice for a name would include a rope reference---as in dadung muntir---but a big, thick, heavy rope, like a hawser, a tambang.

The word "mayit" does not seem to occur in Old Javanese.

The word "mayat" is reported by one authority as occurring in Old Javanese, but not by Zoetmulder, and its meaning is different to its meaning in Modern Javanese.

The word "buntel" does not occur in Old Javanese.

The word "tambang" does occur in Old Javanese and it carries the same meaning as in Modern Javanese.

If keris technology was transported to Lombok prior to about 1600, this pamor motif would have been named in Old Javanese, not Modern Javanese.

The Modern Javanese language did not develop until after the House of Mataram assumed power in Central Jawa, late 16th. century.

Prior to the emergence of the Modern Javanese language the name of the pamor motif "buntel mayat" could not have been "buntel mayat".

Is it possible that in the name used for this pamor motif in Lombok, we are seeing a reflection of the original Javanese name?

Or, did this pamor motif not appear until the Modern Javanese language was already established?

If this is so, then when did the pamor motif enter Bali/Lombok? Most certainly not with the original transference of keris technology.


Anybody out there understand Sasak?

[ganjawulung]

Dear Alan,
The problem is so simple for me: (1) I didn't find any clue that the pamor known by many of me as "buntel mayit" actually was "buntel mayat". (2) I'm not a linguist, so I don't know the language problem. (3) I'm sure that "buntel mayit" is not a sasak word, so I don't need to find somebody who understand sasak (3) I can not speak sasak, so I don't know what "tambangan badung" means.

Ganjawulung

[ganjawulung]

And this comes from Alwi Moerad, from Mataram Lombok. According to him, "tambangan badung" means rope from the kingdom of badung in bali...

[A. G. Maisey]

Oh well Ganja, if you cannot see the problems I have attempted to outline, if you cannot see the co-relation between the physical appearance of pamor buntel mayat, and the meaning of buntel mayat, then I reckon I must write English in a very much less clear fashion than I try to.

Yep, buntel mayat sure ain't Sasak, but tambangan has its roots in Old Javanese. Pretty much what I guessed at yesterday.

Obviously buntel mayat, or if you prefer, buntel mayit, is a comparatively recent name, dating at its earliest from the 17th century.

I reckon we've just about come full circle on this discussion.

We can all believe whatever we wish.

We can go with the flow, or we can accept the belief of one of the great ahli keris, and trust the verification of logic and history.

[David]

I don't know about the rest of you guys, but i personally find this discussion absolutely fascinating!
Thank you gentlemen.

[A. G. Maisey]

Frankly David, I've just about reached the limit of time that I'm prepared to put into this subject.

As soon as I put up the first post I knew I should not have. This subject really needs a 5000 word paper to do it justice.

Its the same old story:- one can be a collector and simply accept what is put in front of one, classify, number, catalogue and have feel-good conversations, or one can dig into the hows, wheres, and whys of things.

At this point I really don't feel like going any further with the simplistic approach I have been trying to stay with so far, and I'm sure not going to write a paper.

You know the old song:- you say tomahtoes, and I say tomaytas---well mate, that's about how about where I'm prepared to let it rest.

[ganjawulung]

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

... If I look at an example of pamor buntel mayat, and I wish to name that pamor, with no preknowledge of what it may be called, and I wish to use the Javanese language to name it, what choices of names do I have?
The one name that must stand above any other possible choices is "slanted wrapping"---"buntel mayat".This is an accurate physical description of the motif.

Now, how long will it be in a society where people habitually play with words, before "mayat" becomes "mayit"?

Factor in the intensification of Kejawen philosophies and the growth of the modern Javanese keris belief system since the first half of the 19th century, and it would probably be surprising if "mayat" did not morph into "mayit".


Another good choice for a name would include a rope reference---as in dadung muntir---but a big, thick, heavy rope, like a hawser, a tambang.

The word "mayit" does not seem to occur in Old Javanese.

The word "mayat" is reported by one authority as occurring in Old Javanese, but not by Zoetmulder, and its meaning is different to its meaning in Modern Javanese.

The word "buntel" does not occur in Old Javanese.

The word "tambang" does occur in Old Javanese and it carries the same meaning as in Modern Javanese.

If keris technology was transported to Lombok prior to about 1600, this pamor motif would have been named in Old Javanese, not Modern Javanese.

The Modern Javanese language did not develop until after the House of Mataram assumed power in Central Jawa, late 16th. century.

Prior to the emergence of the Modern Javanese language the name of the pamor motif "buntel mayat" could not have been "buntel mayat".

Is it possible that in the name used for this pamor motif in Lombok, we are seeing a reflection of the original Javanese name?

Or, did this pamor motif not appear until the Modern Javanese language was already established?

If this is so, then when did the pamor motif enter Bali/Lombok? Most certainly not with the original transference of keris technology.


Anybody out there understand Sasak?

Dear Alan,

I took a breath for a while, just to think about everything you said. But what is hanging in my mind is, that never before I've read or heard someone or somewhere, about the pamor's name of "buntel mayat". That is really horrible, more horrible than "buntel mayit" in my ears.

Old Javanese, of course they know the word "mayit". For sure. Just look at the Wayang, the folk theater of Java. There were a raseksi (female demon-giant) named Gedheng Permoni. She had a devil kingdom, named as Setra Ganda Mayit (smelling corpse - water).

In the case of pamor "buntel mayit", did the word "mayat" morph to "mayit"? But why, only the pamor? And why, the dhapur bearing the word "mayat" didn't change as "mayit"? Why still dhapur Mayat for the certain straight blade, and Mayat Miring for the certain 3 luks keris?

Probably, those word are on their own way. Buntel Mayit, really means as "corpse". But Mayat and Mayat Miring, that supposed to be the other meaning, not like "mayat" (corpse) in Indonesian term. In the case of dhapur, it is pretty sure that the word Mayat is not like the "mayat" in Indonesian meaning (not corpse, but slanted).

If buntel -- as you just said -- assumed not to be used in Old Javanese, why still you use "buntel mayat" instead of (for instance) "bungkus mayat"? Anyway, either "buntel mayat" or "bungkus mayat", those words are more horrible and more terrorizing than "buntel mayit". So?

Ganjawulung

[David]

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

Frankly David, I've just about reached the limit of time that I'm prepared to put into this subject.

You know the old song:- you say tomahtoes, and I say tomaytas---well mate, that's about how about where I'm prepared to let it rest.

Yes Alan, i was sensing that you were just about finished with the suject which was why i was thanking you for your imput.
...and i think you may have gotten that tomayto/tomahto thing backwards.

Ganja, we can continue to discuss this matter if you like, but i doubt we will come to any definitive answer. Alan has presented an alternative to the status quo presented by the contemporary keris world. I personally am inclined to accept Alan's theory not only because i find much sense and logic in it, but also because of the source of his information which comes as a direct line of teaching from a well known and respected ahli keris and empu. I therefore consider it "living knowledge" as opposed to book knowledge.
Others will choose to continue to follow the status quo, which i believe you defended quite well.Thank you again for your imput in this thread. I am a bit confused though as to why you feel that "either "buntel mayat" or "bungkus mayat"...are more horrible and more terrorizing than "buntel mayit""

[ganjawulung]

[QUOTE=David I therefore consider it "living knowledge" as opposed to book knowledge.
[/QUOTE]

Hmmm....

[ganjawulung]

Dear David,

Maybe that's true. What is not true is, that I (We, the Javanese) am still "living" with keris. And not with books. We talk with books, because we must have at least something certain. Not just telling, telling, and story telling. But please, do as you like in this keris world.

Why more horrible? Just say "buntel mayat" to the Indonesian people. What Indonesian people know about the word "mayat" is only corpse. Even though he is Javanese. So please say it to them... "buntel mayat, buntel mayat" Sounds very horrible...

[David]

Ganja, i was not implying that you are not still "living" with keris. I was merely making a comparision of different types of knowledge and stating which one i prefer to place my bets on. Books are wonderful resources and i own and read as many books on keris as i can find. I am certainly not dismissing them as tools for study. But as we all know by now, books can be inaccurate at times and when one bases his research only on other books that might have the same inaccuracy we are like to continue repeating the mistake again and again.
Empu Suparman was a true ahli keris and very much respected for his keris making skills and knowledge. He passed some of his knowledge directly to Alan and for me that is "living" knowledge. The source of the information in the books you have quoted is not so clear.
As has been stated and i believe acknowledged by you as well, keris terms are almost invariable Javanese, not Indonesian, so i find the meaning of the word "mayat" in Indonesian to be inconsequential to the understanding of the meaning of the pamor name. We are not saying "buntel mayat" to just any Indonesian on this forum, we are saying it to keris collectors and enthusiasts who understand that these words are derived from the Javanese language. Therefore the meaning should in fact be less horrible.

[A. G. Maisey]

David, I was just about finished, but after reading Ganja's latest post I felt I needed to comment on a couple things that he wrote, however, this is the last one---I swear it!

Hear that Ganja?

The floor is yours. You can have the last word. Whatever you care to say about buntels and mayits and mayats I will not reply to.

As for the tomatoes David, I fear you have missed the deep philosophical intent of this seemingly simple little ditty. What it is really saying is that we are all unique and that there is no one way nor one answer to anything. This being so there can be no right and no wrong order for the words to the song.Back to front? Front to back? Meaningless, as all things are one and one is everything---split a piece of wood------, lift a stone-----.(Gospel of Thomas)

The true meaning of all those tomatoes and potatoes and oysters and bananas is that there are many roads to God, but only one God. God gives us the tomatoes and so on, but it is our free choice to determine what we do with the tomatoes.Do we eat them all at once---or do we make them last? Savour them separately?Or do we use them to make a curry? Big decision, but one that we are free to make, and no matter if we make a curry, or sample the gifts of God separately, they still sustain life. You see? More than one answer to any question.

And do not forget the pyjamas, brother David. God invented pyjamas so we would not be led into temptation. Ever seen a woman in pyjamas around about bedtime? Try it some time. Instant birth control. As for wearing them yourself---well, its easier just to roll over and go to sleep.But God in his wisdom also gave us a remedy for those pestilential pyjamas. Yes brother David, he gave us laughter---however you wish to pronounce it. Which is something you really need sometimes, because if you couldn't laugh at things, you'd cry in frustration.


Dear Ganja,

I accept that you may not have heard the term "buntel mayat", but Empu Suparman Supawijaya had heard it, and he claimed that this was the correct name for the pamor motif that is now known as "buntel mayit".

Put as simply as I can :- Pak Parman said that the pamor name "buntel mayit" was incorrect, and that it was really "buntel mayat".

As for how this may sound to your ears, I understand fully your distaste, whether you hear "buntel mayat", or "buntel mayit".

In linguistics, the recognised prime reference on the Old Javanese language is the Old Javanese -English (also Old Javanese-Indonesian) dictionary produced by P.J. Zoetmulder and S.O. Robson. The word "mayit" does not appear in this dictionary.

To establish when the name "Setra Ganda Mayit" was first used, one would need to research the history of the wayang to identify the literary source where this name first appeared.
Regretably, we cannot take something as we see it today, and assume that it was the same yesterday, or 500 years ago.

The transition from "mayat" to "mayit" in respect of the pamor motif may be understood by the association of ideas and the Javanese propensity for playing with words. The same, or even a similar association of ideas does not exist with dhapur.


There is no "buntel" in Old Javanese, no "bungkus", no "mayit", and no "mayat" ( in a sense able to be linked to Modern Javanese).
Clearly the pamor has been given its present name, be that buntel mayat, or buntel mayit, since the 17th century. If it existed prior to the 17th century it had a different name.
But perhaps it did not exist prior to the 17th century, in which case it may be regarded as a new pamor (after 1650).If it is indeed a new pamor, then this opens a whole new line of discussion---but I'm not going to go there.

As to why this pamor name uses "buntel", rather than "bungkus", I have no idea, however, I would make the point that there is a shade of difference in the meanings of these two words.

But be that as it may, the matter that has been under discussion has not been why certain things did not happen, nor why certain things did happen.

The matter under discussion has been firstly the meaning of the word "mayat", and secondly the correct name for a particular pamor.

My initial post was generated by some private correspondence which I recieved requesting clarification on the correct name of the pamor. This correspondence was in turn generated by a discussion in another thread which apparently caused a good deal of confusion amongst people who do not understand either Indonesian or Javanese.

I believe I have achieved my objective of clarification for those people who approached me privately.

I now have no further interest in this discussion. I do not regard this discussion as a contest, nor a point scoring competition, I really do not care what anybody may call this particular pamor. I am merely sharing knowledge that is in my possession. Accept it, or reject it, either way it makes no difference to me.

Those who wish to believe that the correct name of the pamor motif we have been discussing is "buntel mayit" are perfectly at liberty to so believe.

Those who wish to believe that the correct name of this pamor motif is "buntel mayat", are equally at liberty to so believe.

And those who were confused as to how the word "mayat" is to be understood should no longer be confused.

[ganjawulung]

What I've learned from this hot discussion? Appreciation. People out there still take care of this keris world. While here, in the keris country, some people toss those things to the rubbish...

[David]

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

As for the tomatoes David, I fear you have missed the deep philosophical intent of this seemingly simple little ditty. What it is really saying is that we are all unique and that there is no one way nor one answer to anything. This being so there can be no right and no wrong order for the words to the song.Back to front? Front to back? Meaningless, as all things are one and one is everything---split a piece of wood------, lift a stone-----.(Gospel of Thomas)

Nope, didn't miss it mate...that's why the little winking emoticon was there.

[Pangeran Datu]

Aaww

Hi all,

I found this thread interesting because it repeats a theme I have encountered numerous times, both here and elsewhere: a debate with no agreement.
It reminds me of an 'Eddy': going round in circles, dissipating energy but does no useful work (j/k)

With regard to the original post: the term 'Buntel Mayat' must be seen in the context of its inception with the advent of that damascene pattern.
As I have seen little evidence of this presented here so far, everybody may be right or wrong.
For instance, no one has put forward any credible date for its advent, from which we may be able to 'guesstimate' the correct term and its meaning.
Thus, I could be just as right as anyone else, or even more so, if I were to say that the correct term for the above damascene pattern is:

BUNTAL MAYAT

buntal = alternating 'colours'
mayat = intentional, from ayat = intend

Regarding the use of the Javanese language/words for terms in kerisology: YES and NO.
Depends whether the aspect/item was created in a Javanese region (even in Java, there are other cultures/languages besides Javanese, some a lot older than Javanese).
Unless, of course, a uniform standard has been developed which requires the use of Javanese and the aspect/item was created since the advent of that standard.

Cheers.
Aaww

[David]

Thanks for adding some more water to the eddy Pangeran.

[David]

I would also add Pangeran that just because two parties do not reach agreement in any particular debate in no way indicates that "no useful work" has been done. This has been an extremely interesting and informative discussion for me. Just because concensus isn't reached between the two major debating parties doesn't mean that either party hasn't had an influence on others on the forum. Some, like yourself, may even form a third or fourth opinion on the matter. Does this make the discussion "useless"?
Once again i would like to thank both Ganja and Alan for their cotribution on this thread.