Filipino/Moro Martial Arts question...

[KuKulzA28]

No toes are intended to be stepped on here.
I am not a practitioner of Filipino fighting.
I'm no master historian on this topic.

I've noticed that there's very little on Moro Martial Arts, call it Kali or Silat, and from the little I know, it seems they are often taught through family and is dying out in many places. I've also noticed different, mainly Visayan, fighting arts claiming to know, in addition to their native daggers, sticks, bolos, etc., how to use a weapon such as the Kampilan or barong.

The body can only move efficiently in certain ways and there's only so many viable fighting principles that can be applied - let us not get hung up on style too much. While I understand there can be a general categorization of blades and that similar principles apply to different blades - there's always subtleties and movements unique to the particular weapon. For example, a da-dao and a chang-dao may use similar movements, but one is a closer-range chopper, the other has a very long reach and a sharp point. It's user's tactics would be different. Or for example a rapier and a jian. Both are double-edged, long stabbing swords, but can slash and often require a lot of finesse to use effectively. However, the guard on rapiers is very different than that of the jian. The rapier also emphasizes a lot of thrusts, parrying, and in the old days, locks and daggers. The jian, while being similar, still emphasizes a lot of cutting, and is not commonly seen with a dagger which seems to be a very European take on the finesse-oriented fencing sword. They both had a similar role in their respective societies and battlefields though.
What I am saying is: did Visayans blend these Moro weapons with their styles of fighting, or apply Moro fighting to moro swords?

So while long-blade principles in Visayan arts may apply well to a Kris or Barong, would they have all the subtleties of the Moro practitioner? DO those even matter (except when two warriors would be fundamentally equal in skill)? Even if it looks different perhaps they both use the 'moro' sword effectively? Also, kris have been used all the way up to Luzon, even if slightly different, Spanish influenced, and of lesser quality. The Visayan area also had contact with Borneo and the Moros, where these 'Moro' weapons were "from". There is no doubt they had barongs and kris, and there's no doubt at all that they encountered them in battle.


I suspect no one knows the answer for sure, but maybe we can discuss?

[kai]

Hello Vinny,

I've also noticed different, mainly Visayan, fighting arts claiming to know, in addition to their native daggers, sticks, bolos, etc., how to use a weapon such as the Kampilan or barong.

Well, IMVHO the key word here seems to be "claiming (to know)" - AFAIK it's quite often 2nd/n-th generation practitioners enthusiastically embracing well-known Moro weaponery rather than the widely-respected style founders and their direct long-time students...

In my experience, a garab is a completely different animal than, say, a barung. And from what little I've been able to glean, these 2 blades are employed very differently. There are enough sleek folks around and I wouldn't want to be on the receiving end of just about anything they might pick up! However, there's still a fundamental difference between making something work and studying a traditional "tool" of any good MA system...

BTW, I still have to see any antique kerambit from the Philippines. Obviously, there are also "fashion" influences in MA circles...

Regards,
Kai

[KuKulzA28]

A garab and a barong are SO different, I agree. However, its interesting you should mention these as I have never seen/watched anyone "native user" fight with either one. Pinutis, other pointed bolos, sansibars, and ginuntings seem more popular in the general arnis/eskrima/kali you see...
But do you see tenegre? Talibong? Sanduko? Bonafacio bolo? Kris? Barong? Kampilan? Pira? Nope... at least I haven't
__________________________

Originally Posted by kai

Well, IMVHO the key word here seems to be "claiming (to know)" - AFAIK it's quite often 2nd/n-th generation practitioners enthusiastically embracing well-known Moro weaponery rather than the widely-respected style founders and their direct long-time students...

Interesting that they would turn around an embrace the Moro's (long-time enemies') weapons. I guess it is because the Moro are a sort of symbol of resistance. But I feel like the Moro's success had more to do with a more unified resistance as opposed to the myriad of tribal groups and small territories of most everyone else. A talibong or a pinuti doesn't look inferior to a kris or barong in my eyes - just different. Cebuano's, who have fought Moros for many many years, cannot have been significantly martially inferior to them... and with that in mind, they probably weren't that much inferior to the Spaniards militarily.
__________________________

Ah and of course, martial arts has all sorts of fashions... tactical fashion, super-traditionalist fashion, scientific fashion, no-combat-all-health fashion, meditative-philosophical fashion, moro-fashion, Butterfly-sword-fashion, Mixed-martial-arts-fashion, etc.etc. fads are funny things, but very harmful sometimes

[Maurice]

Maybe you will find the answer overhere!

http://www.silat.tv/

Kind regards,
Maurice

[David]

AFAIK silat is specifically in reference to various Indonesian martial arts, not the Philippines. Filipino Martial Arts (FMA) that deal with weapons are generally described as Eskrima,Kali and Arnis de Máno. I believe Kali is the one specific to the Moro.

[Maurice]

Originally Posted by David

AFAIK silat is specifically in reference to various Indonesian martial arts, not the Philippines. Filipino Martial Arts (FMA) that deal with weapons are generally described as Eskrima,Kali and Arnis de Máno. I believe Kali is the one specific to the Moro.

Yes, But on the link I posted earlier also Kali practitioners can be found. Not only silat styles!

[David]

Originally Posted by KuKulzA28

I've noticed that there's very little on Moro Martial Arts, call it Kali or Silat, and from the little I know, it seems they are often taught through family and is dying out in many places.

Maurice, i was really responding mostly to KuKulz' statement in his original post.

[Maurice]

Originally Posted by David

Maurice, i was really responding mostly to KuKulz' statement in his original post.

OK David, I missed it.

[t_c]

Hi - Interesting topic, this is a little aside, but I thought I'd offer my two cents about the term "Kali" as I think it has been developing some false associations. These are just my own opinions/observations and I know these discussions can be contentious, so please understand that I don't mean any disrespect to anyone. (I'm open to being corrected. )

The term Kali is not a tell-all as regards to where a style is from: i.e. Pekiti-Tirsia Kali. I've never heard anyone associated with PTK say that the style originates from the southern Philippines or is a Moro art. Personally I see the adoption of the term "Kali" for more cultural reasons: would you really want your nation's traditional martial arts referenced in the language of a colonial power? If I remember correctly Tuhon Leo Gaje first made this point during one of his pre-seminar talks.

In trying to recollect a discussion somewhere else in the binary stream, I believe it was said that Dan Inosanto was the first person who used the term in print in his book on FMA and then it took off in common usage from there. The term may be a fairly modern one.

I live in the US, and here, the only style that I have ever seen that I would consider to have influence from Silat is Villabrille Largusa Kali, and mainly because they use "cross-over" footwork similar to Sempok/Dembok in Silat (one foot steps in front or back of the other - from my experience a big no-no in other FMA - never cross your feet). Talking with an instructor of mine regarding that style, it appears that they do orient some of their movements towards dealing with heavier weapons which could be an indicator of Keris, etc (my inference - not my teacher's). But then again, the history page posted on the Villabrille Largusa site talks about Villabrille fighting a Moro Prince who practices Silat/Kuntao....

So if you are searching for info on Moro arts I would caution you in relying on the term "Kali" alone.

I hope someone has some good info for you though - I often been curious about the same subject. I think you are on the right track though with the connection between movement and light vs heavy weapon: very different games. Another avenue of research may be Borneo....

[KuKulzA28]

Topic resurrection...

I was watching Mr. Cecil Quirino's "Crossing the Sulu Seas"... while it is somewhat old and patchy(?) it's a nice little documentary. It is interesting that Sali learned his martial art from a master in Sabah... which is on the northern tip of Borneo island... Are there not quite a few Moros there, adjacent to the Sultanate of Brunei? Perhaps you are right in suggesting Borneo as a place to research as well.

As MABAGANI said at the 14th post on topic: Barung(s) for you

Originally Posted by MABAGANI

btw After studying Tausug Silat and the traditional use of the barung, I see no relation to what I've heard repeated over and over among some eskrima and arnis practitioners and the short stick or close range fighting systems, that their art is based on the barung, its been passed on as truth for as long as I can remember but needs a good hard look at reality among FMA teachers.

-------------------------------------------------

By the way... does anyone know which Filipino martial arts have the Samar Talibong/Garab as their main sword/bolo?
I know that Pulahan-Derobio Eskrima has the Leyte Sansibar as it's main weapon... and while many Leyte-folk are Waray like on Samar, the Sansibar is a very different blade than the heavier talibon/garab...

[Dimasalang]

Im not a believer in the term "Kali" also. It is a made up word...and now it has taken on many different associations. Also, to call Eskrima or Arnis "Kali" is not correct...this is my own personal belief. Eskrima/Arnis is a system developed by Christian Filipinos(most particularly from the Visayan region). To understand more you have to look deeper in history...and not necessarily FMA history but overall history. Everyone fails to realize the Moros were ruthless radical 'pirates'...and they dealt heavily in kidnapping for slavery and slave trading up until the Americans took over. Even in present day 2009, there is still instances of Moros kidnapping for slavery, particularly of christian Filipinos..it is in their culture to do so as some of them believe it is their religious right to do so. Looking back, one particular event where Visayan warriors trained in a type of system to fight the Moros was documented by the Spanish...look up Captain Juan de Chaves when he and 300 Spaniards along with 1000 Visayan warriors sailed to Mindanao to invade and take over Zamboanga in 1635. Fort Pilar was established, and from that period on, was nothing but battles and wars between the Spanish/Visayans and the Moros in Zamboanga history. It is important to keep in mind, the Spanish 'claimed' the Philippine islands, but they did not have full control of the southern region. Thousands of Moros have died fighting the Spanish, but they were in fact still undefeated by the Spanish. The Spanish prohibited 'Freedom of Religion'. If the Spanish had control over the Moros, there would be no more Philippine Moros...they all would have been killed off or converted to Catholics.

Much later, different Eskrima systems were developed and established by Christian Filipinos to protect their family, personal property, and land from these marauding Moros who would invade their coastal villages. It was not until the late 18 to early 1900s when these systems began to be documented and recorded. Being Cebu and southern Visayan regions were the major hot beds for piracy, you can see and understand why and how a martial art system came about and developed more drastically then any other part of the Philippines.

I just have to say also, we Filipinos are a proud race, and being of a mixed cross culture, we tend to try and find ourselves...meaning, trying to find the origin of our roots on what is authentic and original...what is truly Filipino in origin. And that sometimes means trying to meat out the Spanish and American influence. Some going as far as trying to eliminate Spanish terms, changing the name of Philippines, or bringing back the pre-spanish native writing script of Alibata/Baybayin...makes sense as to why some FMAs do not like the Spanish terms 'eskrima' or 'arnis'. The Filipino martial artist who are coming up with these new terms, like Kali and PRE-Spanish terms, are only trying to establish or set themselves apart as being so-called 'original and authentic' and purely Filipino with no outside influence(since any type of influence may seem unoriginal, mixed, and diluted)...this is nearly impossible. We have 300+ years of Spanish influence that can not be ignored, along with 100 years of American influence...and I dont see any type of system that has survived for 400+ years that can be slated as being 'original'. Unlike other cultures like the Chinese and Japanese, one thing we Filipinos lacked severely, recording and documentation in writing. Was there a Moro fighting system?...I am sure there was, but the "terms" and specific words for them within the Philippines are long gone, forgotten, and not remembered. In reality, there is no Kampilan, Kris, or Barong fighting system in Eskrima...like I mentioned, Eskrima is a martial art developed by Christians, it would make no sense for them to be using Muslim weaponry. I know many Eskrima banners carry the Moro Muslim weapon symbols...as I believe these symbols are there to honor and recognize their fight with the Moros and against these types of weapons...nothing else, they do not practice with any those weapons. And if they do use those weapons and call their art Eskrima, then that is something new and/or should be questioned. If you are wondering more about some type of Moro fighting system; as others have said, look to Borneo...at one point in the past; Sulu, Palawan, Mindanao, and Borneo were all seen as one and the same region. Many of the Moro Filipinos of the south associate and relate themselves more with Borneo then they do with the general Filipino population of the north and central regions.

[Dimasalang]

Originally Posted by KuKulzA28

By the way... does anyone know which Filipino martial arts have the Samar Talibong/Garab as their main sword/bolo?
I know that Pulahan-Derobio Eskrima has the Leyte Sansibar as it's main weapon... and while many Leyte-folk are Waray like on Samar, the Sansibar is a very different blade than the heavier talibon/garab...

The Pulahan Derobio group "should" have incorporated the Talibong/Garab in to their system. I know this group well as its main HQ comes out of San Diego and I have been in a couple of their seminars. I believe they just don't know well enough or lack the weapons to train with them...they use what every other FMA has for training(a piece of aluminum).

In regards to other eskrima groups. Well, going by the famous Blind Princess fable...being she was from the Ganadara mountain region of Samar, she was a Pulahan. Her two famous renowned students were Floro Villabrille and Felicisimo Dizon. Dizon is still a great mystery in the Eskrima world, not much is really known about him...it is believed he was born in the 1890s and much older then all the other Grandmasters or masters of the early Eskrima era. He would later become the teacher of Antonio Ilustrisimo and Angel Cabales at the piers in Tondo Manila(~1930s?)...Tondo is the toughest and worst section of Manila even today. I believe they were not really hell bent on having precise weapons like the Garab/Talibong for training...so I really doubt their systems today incorporates them even though that is possibly the sword they used originally. Either way, you might want to check out any one of those systems to see their blade oriented techniques and if they may be still applicable to a Garab/Talibong. Hope that helps.

Tatang Ilustrisimo in his 90s demonstrating with live blades.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LVnx0NHnekQ

[ThePepperSkull]

I am very interested in looking into how Moro Silat differs from modern eskrima/arnis.

As a practitioner of Filipino Eskrima and of Indonesian Silat, I can definitely see the difference between those fighting systems. The Eskrima style I learned was from my instructor's family style, updated by him after he studied Lameco Escrima under the late Edgar Sulite. Escrima/arnis/kali, at least under the lameco school of thought, covers a series of ranges hence the name (which is short for 'Largo, Medio, Corto' or 'long, medium, short' range). Generally the stances in modern FMA are practiced standing up on both legs, shoulder-width apart. There is a focus on footwork (like many, if not most sword or weapons based fighting systems) and there seems to be no shortage of stabbing motions taught for the use of bladed weapons. Trapping/sticking/checking hands also seems to be a common thing being practiced among us arnisadors as well. Our strikes tend to be quick and we focus on optimizing the efficacy of our strikes: in power, recorvery time, and where we aim for to be more effective. A strike like the Abaniko, or 'fan strike' as many call it, seems to be one that comes to mind to characterize what I have described.

As opposed to that, the indonesian-based Silat I've practiced (Indonesian Mande Muda and some bruneian silat suffian bela diri) has a focus on what it deems effective but the focus differs. There is a focus on range, but also a focus on stances. Silat practitioners train to fight standing up, kneeling with one knee down, on both their knees, and in many instances sitting down as well. I was taught that this was because many areas, depending on where the style of Silat is practiced and was fought, there was rougher terrain. To fight standing up in a muddy area or area where there was loose soil would meant that sometimes you would need to fight if you slipped and fell down, because your opponent would not hesitate to strike while you were down (nor should he hesitate). To prepare oneself to fight in a compromised position, then, could be seen as a necessity depending on the area. I've also noticed that as opposed to the more quick, rapid recovery strikes of escrima, Silat prefers an array of wide sweeping motions in their weapons strikes intended for deep penetrative cuts. Longer blades have none or close to no use of stabbing motions in contrast to escrima, although shorter blade training in silat does focus a lot on stabbing.

Does anyone on here practice Moro Silat? How do the weapons application of your arts differ from what I have described that is common among Indonesian Silat and Filipino Arnis/Escrima?


(As a side note, I know many people have some hangups about how authentic the term 'kali' is, the general consensus being 'not at all', but many arts under the 'kali' banner are just as effective as any art labelled under the name of escrima or arnis that I have seen. Is Pekiti Tirsia any less effective since it changed its name from Pekiti Tirsia Arnis to Pekiti Tirsia kali? I think not and in that respect I have no prejudices about the name. If it's effective it's worth learning in my opinion. Although from a historical standpoint I understand your concerns about its now widespread usage.)

[Rick]

Just a question here; have any of you seen the staged combat sequences from Crossing Sulu Seas , Cecil Quirino's vid ?

Any comments if you have ?

[David]

Originally Posted by ThePepperSkull

Does anyone on here practice Moro Silat? How do the weapons application of your arts differ from what I have described that is common among Indonesian Silat and Filipino Arnis/Escrima?

I am unaware of anything called "Moro Silat". AFAIK "silat" is not a term associated with the Moro arts. I'm i wrong about this?

[KuKulzA28]

Originally Posted by David

I am unaware of anything called "Moro Silat". AFAIK "silat" is not a term associated with the Moro arts. I'm i wrong about this?

Their neighbors and cousins in Brunei, Sabah, and Kalimantan call their fighting arts Silat I think. Their long-term enemies and distant relations to the north in Luzon and the Visayas call it Eskrima/Arnis/Kali. Since the Moros are culturally closer to the Borneo melayu, I guess it could be safe to refer to it as Moro silat. Though if we knew what they comonly called it themselves, we'd probably call it that... whatever it is.

[ThePepperSkull]

Originally Posted by David

I am unaware of anything called "Moro Silat". AFAIK "silat" is not a term associated with the Moro arts. I'm i wrong about this?

The Moro martial arts are referred to as either "Silat", "Kuntaw"/"Kuntao", or a combination of both. The names of the style come from the tribe (for example a silat player from Basilan would practice "Silat Saudara Yakan" at home). I've heard that calling it 'filipino silat' is incorrect as they never swore allegiance to king felipe of spain and would rather have it referred to as 'mindanao silat' in general terms. Calling it 'Muslim silat' is also incorrect AFAIK, as many seem to acknowledge that the art was there before the arrival of the muslims. For discussion purposes I will call it Moro Silat to describe it as the art of the bangsamoro people. A big difference between moro silat and indonesian silat is that It's more of a private affair in mindanao rather than a nationally acknowledged activity like in indonesia. The teacher-student dynamic is more individual and less group lesson focused and generally the styles passed down are between family members. In this respect it is very difficult to find an authentic Silat/Kuntaw teacher, much less find one who would be willing to teach outside of his bloodline or extended family. As a result I have seen very little of these styles, but have seen enough to draw certain conclusions.

The Moro martial arts seem to have a closer relationship stylistically to that of Indonesian and Bruneian Silat. Footwork is similar to indonesian silat, as are some stances when comparing to how different modern Arnis is. Blade movement seems, superficially, more similar to bruneian Silat. Again, these are conclusians I have drawn from observing what very little I have seen of Moro Martial Arts.

The Moro martial arts seem older and more traditional to me, whereas visayan/luzon based escrima/arnis has a lot of european influence. The footwork in modern arnis is very similar to styles like Portugese Jogo De Pau. I may be digressing from the main topic, but as a side note I should add that Jogo De Pau is very recent, having been first recorded in history around the 1910's. It's a long stick art primarily, with a significant portion of training dedicated to short stick work in place of a sword, much like Arnis. here is an example of some Jogo de pau sparring. The basic strikes, blocks, and footwork seen in Arnis can be seen here as well, although arnis' footwork is less linear and more angular because of the S.E.A. influence. Arnis also employs the use of 'sticky', or trapping hands: possibly the influence of the chinese/taiwanese martial arts or perhaps even Indian martial arts with their use of a katar in the non-sword hand. We move in similar ways when we have a knife or no weapon in the non-sword hand.

[ThePepperSkull]

Originally Posted by ThePepperSkull

As opposed to that, the indonesian-based Silat I've practiced (Indonesian Mande Muda and some bruneian silat suffian bela diri) has a focus on what it deems effective but the focus differs.

I made an error in this post. I meant to type out "Harimau", but I think I may have been watching a suffian bela diri video on youtube while typing this and it got into my head as I typed. Apologies all around!


I have also replied to this thread to showcase a couple of videos. the first is of Telesporo SubingSubing, a lesser-known martial artist in the FMA community. Mr. SubingSubing comes from Mindanao and some say that he taught a certain Mr. John Lacoste (who later settled in california and ended up teaching Mr Dan Inosanto) his style of fighting (The name of which has been lost and which many have dubbed simply as 'Moro-moro style'). I post this because I believe this is some of the very few footage we have access to in terms of Moro fighting systems:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NNentRsIkWE


And here we see Manong Lacoste performing a very similar from to that of his predecessor, Telesporo SubingSubing:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jpsGcT5j2Vg

It's said that Lacoste was a sailor in Mindanao when he met and trained under SubingSubing. I thought it was interesting enough to share with you gentlemen. Hopefully it will give us all more insight into how these blades were used.

[Rick]

I see definite similarities to the footage in Cecil's documentary .
Thanks for this .

[Battara]

I agree Rick. Very similar. Even then, there the Indonesian forms go very low and one of the older Moros on Cecil's work that learned from an older Moro stood more upright more of the time. Also most of the pictures of fighting Moros from the turn of the century through the 1940s I also see Moros fighting or practicing upright.

Interesting how things evolve.

[ThePepperSkull]

Great observation.

I find that a lot of Phillippine martial arts takes into account the range in terms of distance between fighters (Largo, medio, corto ranges; or Long, Medium, and close ranged hand to hand or weapons combat), however Silat styles take another range into account. This being how far you are from the ground.

I was taught in Mande Muda Silat to fight standing upright, crouched, and while sitting. I know Harimau styles have this training dynamic, as well as many other Silat fighting systems. Perhaps moro fighting systems have had this as well.

If we take a look at the videos, notice how both SubingSubing and Lacoste are both standing, and progressively bending their knees lower and lower as if to transition into a crouching position (In the SubingSubing video, he is actually crouching while demonstrating some stickwork at timestamp 2:08). Note subingsubing's tendency to lean into and crouch while striking. In Cecil's film, the demonstrations are also often performed in a range of positions; crouched, standing, I believe it was the Barong demonstration (recalling from memory, I could be wrong) that had one gentleman kneeling while exchanging blows.

The standing-kneeling-sitting dynamic of combat training is being adopted by a lot of FMA schools in more recent years, but this is a distinctly Silat characteristic in terms of origin.

[Battara]

Although I have had only what I consider an introduction to arnis/escrima, I remember being taught upright but with bent knees and being able to be near the ground or upright. I guess bent knees and mobility of range are a must to these island forms.

[KuKulzA28]

Awesome, thanks for posting up the video links! The Chinese martial art I practice also emphasizes this. 3 ranges (long, medium, short), as well as 3 heights... this and footwork allows for one to have superior positioning.

[Dimasalang]

Interesting. Thanks for sharing those videos.

[kai]

I have also replied to this thread to showcase a couple of videos. the first is of Telesporo SubingSubing, a lesser-known martial artist in the FMA community. Mr. SubingSubing comes from Mindanao and some say that he taught a certain Mr. John Lacoste (who later settled in california and ended up teaching Mr Dan Inosanto) his style of fighting (The name of which has been lost and which many have dubbed simply as 'Moro-moro style').

Well, this looks very Visayan to me. (BTW, I love the way he moves!)

AFAIK, Telesporo SubingSubing came from Balamban, Cebu. There are some old Visayan outposts on Mindanao and during the last century many Visayans settled throughout Mindanao. From all accounts there is no open teaching of any traditional Moro MA/Silat on this island (if any); the Sulu archipelago might be a better place to look for genuine Moro MA but even there you'd have to be careful not to run into Visayan MA nowadays...

Regards,
Kai

[ThePepperSkull]

Interesting. I wasn't aware of how widespread the Visayan arts were back then. Although I do find it unfortunate that this did not end up being actual moro martial arts, I appreciate the clarificaion very much. Thanks for the input, kai!

[Dimasalang]

I'd really like to get in to this area also and learn(or at least have a better understanding) the origins of Moro Martial Arts, as well as Visayan Martial Arts. I do not have a firm understanding of either right now, right now I take a style stemming from Cebu...and from class, the history doesn't go that deep. So this thread intrigues me, and I hope you guys can further help me in which ever way. As I posted earlier, I find it interesting that Moro arts seems to be so hidden from the public eye...obviously there is an art, but even today most people have no clue on what it is or what it looks like. So Subingsubing kinda fascinates me as most seem to associate him with Moro arts. I just did a search right now and found this post in a martial arts forum. This guys seems to be well hearsed in FMA history, and makes claims that possibly can be supported. Just thought I'd throw this in there.

This is in response to the poster's inquiry on Waray Eskrima. With regard to that story of Villabrille learning eskrima from a Waray-waray in the fabled Gandara Island, it's a fantasy made up by people who wanted to add mystical elements into the FMA. I've gone to Gundara myself to check for any eskrima lineage and the result: NIL! All I found there were tons of tahong, sorry to disappint Tagadat, but no eskrima! So let's scrap that Blind Princess Josefina B.S. once and for all. If at all there existed a so-called blind princess in Gundara, I can only surmise that she must have been a member of the Pulahan movement. From historical facts gathered, the Pulahan movement in Samar-Leyte area was brought by Cebuano insurrectos that came along with the first wave of Basak Pardo blacksmiths who were fugitives from the Spanish authorities.

There were actually two entry points of these Cebuano Pulahans and blackmiths in Leyte, one was in Carrigara led by the Tabada and de la Pena families of Pardo and the other was in Padre Burgos in Southern Leyte. No less the Filemenon TAbada the son of the first wave of Tabadas told me this story, he was about 74 years old when I met him in 2003. Now with regard to Andrew Abrian who's the only living Waray-waray that I know who is into eskrima, his system is Moro-moro Orabes Heneral. I can only name one person who has a credible lineage of the Moro-moro style: the late Telesporo Subingsubing of Balamban, again this sounds boring, TAGA CEBU lang gihapon! Let us not confuse Moro-moro as a style coming from the Moros of Mindanao...it is actually copied from the Moro-moro plays of the Spanish colonial period depicting the Chritian victory over the Mohammedan Moors of Southern Spain, how many times do I have to repeat this and yet, some idiots continue to insist that the Moro-moro of Sonny Umpad, Subingsubing and Andrew Adrian come from our Muslim brethren's... no less than my Tausug friend of the Bangsa Moro Arts can attest to this fact. When the book on the Bangsa Moro Arts which i and ned have the privilege to proof read a lot of B.S. circulated in the FMA is going to to be debunked once and for all including that KALI baloney!

I don't think Abrian got his eskrima from a Waray-waray, again we have to base these on historical facts that we've gathered in our field research.

Derobio Eskrima of General Ablin must have been imported from Cebu via the Pulahans and the Pardo blacksmiths... one of them was a certain Gorio a Cebuano eskrimador from Pardo who migrated to Carrigara and later married one of the Tabada women. Now, let's dig further whether there is really eskrima indigenous and originating in Waraylandia... of the people I sought and talked with in Tacloban, they learned eskrima from an old man who passed away a few years ago named Gualberto Sillar...however after much sleuthing, I found out that Gualberto Sillar who was one of the late Edgar Sulite's Waray teachers learned eskrima from Melecio Ilustrisimo of Kinatarcan Island-CEBU na naman! I wish i could find an authentic eskrima coming from the Waray's, I go there almost every week and I've even learned to speak Waray-waray like " maruyag ako haim...damo malidong ug madakmol adi Tacloban.." meaning ( Ganahan kaayo ko nimo, pagkadaghang mamords ug bigot diri sa Tacloban!). Tell him not to worry, I like the Waray-warays, but our research so far to look for authentic Waray-waray eskrima proved futile, they still lead to Cebu. No doubt the Waray-warays are very brave warriors, however during the height of the Sulu campaigns between 1635-1644 Don Sebastian Hurtado de Corcuera recruited only the best of the Ilonggo, Cebuano, Boholano and Macabebe warriors...and that probably explains the dominance of these ethnic groups in the FMA.

[ThePepperSkull]

And here, I thought I was providing some helpful info when really I perpetuated some FMA-half truth I've been seeking to rid myself of!

Very informative post, Dimasalang! I find that a lot of FMA, because of the lack of a cohesive martial history, is steeped in this sort of half-truth and barely researched history that I really detest. A lot of it I was fed and believed until recent years and decided to joing message boards such as this to clarify which was myth and which was truth. It's very difficult to unlearn what I've come to accept as complete truth, but forum members like you and kai make the experience so enriching that I'm glad I decided to dig deeper.

I found this part of your quoted post in particular most interesting:

Let us not confuse Moro-moro as a style coming from the Moros of Mindanao...it is actually copied from the Moro-moro plays of the Spanish colonial period depicting the Chritian victory over the Mohammedan Moors of Southern Spain

This was also of interest to me, as it helped me understand why FMA really stands out stylistically when compared to other styles from neigboring regions and why a lot of widespread FMA has been attributed to have origins from just a few specific regions of the Philippines:

No doubt the Waray-warays are very brave warriors, however during the height of the Sulu campaigns between 1635-1644 Don Sebastian Hurtado de Corcuera recruited only the best of the Ilonggo, Cebuano, Boholano and Macabebe warriors...and that probably explains the dominance of these ethnic groups in the FMA.

[Dimasalang]

Pepperskull, this is what makes this place so great! We can all learn and collaborate together and "iron out" these issues.

It is also a great peeve of mine to hear our history(general or of martial arts) being given in half-truth history lessons. Given our culture, the elders are always correct in speaking(even when it is their opinion), and the young must never question and must obey. Our elders never want document anything in writing...I don't understand why. And look at our history now, it is filled with so many holes, us Fil-Ams have a hard time finding and understanding our own identity when we go looking for it...there is no real reference and things just contradict one another...it ends up making no sense at all. Even older eskrimadors don't want to put their curriculum and lessons in writing...they all feel what ever is in their brain is enough. My only guess would be they believe their written secrets can get stolen? Just think, as it is being shown now, when they die, they take to the grave that great legacy as well. When one master falls, so does part of FMA history. So this is why I think it is important now(in this moment in time) to figure all this out...while there are still some old school eskrimadors walking around. Best way would be to interview and document for ourselves, since they sure don't want to.

I believe the quote you highlight about the Moro Moro plays should be emphasized above all else first. Most, even now in the Philippines, when they hear the term "Moro Moro Plays" they associate it with the war between the Spanish and the Moros of southern Philippines...which is untrue. As stated in the quote, the plays are about the war in southern Spain when the "Moors" from north Africa invaded. Moors is the English term; the Spanish have always called the Moors "Moros" since the very beginning. It is from the north African Moors(Moros), where the Spanish gave the southern Philippine Muslims their name "Moros". And it is through the reenactment of these Moro Moro plays "Christianized" Filipinos hid and practiced their martial art.

After reading the entire thread from where that quote came from, it looks like it was written by Celestino "Tinni" Macachor(who is based out of Cebu). Aside from being a researching historian, he is also one of the pillars of De Campo JDC-IO. He is the co-author of the book, Cebuano Eskrima: Beyond the Myth...which delves heavily in to the history of Visayan eskrima. I actually have this book and it is extremely deep. But I have only read a few of the chapters...I think I'll have to sit down now and read it in its entirety. You can also email Tinni Macachor at ambangmac53@yahoo.com. I think I need to send him a few emails.

[ThePepperSkull]

Originally Posted by Dimasalang

Pepperskull, this is what makes this place so great! We can all learn and collaborate together and "iron out" these issues.

Indeed. This is why I enjoy this particular forum. FMA sites tend to derail into petty bickering, as the rules are never clearly stated or enforced, and people in other forums have a habit of being too invested emotionally into an argument.

Here, we can disagree yet still maintain an enjoyable degree of polite discourse. Because of this, I find that we accomplish more. The purpose of this message board seems to lead more towards what is correct, and not who is correct. A very very welcome change in my internet experience.

Originally Posted by Dimasalang

After reading the entire thread from where that quote came from, it looks like it was written by Celestino "Tinni" Macachor(who is based out of Cebu). Aside from being a researching historian, he is also one of the pillars of De Campo JDC-IO. He is the co-author of the book, Cebuano Eskrima: Beyond the Myth...which delves heavily in to the history of Visayan eskrima. I actually have this book and it is extremely deep. But I have only read a few of the chapters...I think I'll have to sit down now and read it in its entirety. You can also email Tinni Macachor at ambangmac53@yahoo.com. I think I need to send him a few emails.

...or perhaps we can convince him through e-mail to join us here and further enrich our discussion? Both about Moro fighting systems and Visayan (namely Cebuano) fighting systems. I'm sure many of us would appreciate his input.