Indian sword for ID

[ariel]

Just by looking at it, the form of the blade seems to be totally unsuitable for battle. But here it is.... Please, does anyone here has any idea what on earth is it, what's the name, where from, and whatever else comes to mind....

[VANDOO]

THE HILT LOOKS LIKE THOSE USED ON INDIA FARINGI (SPELLING?) THE BLADE LOOKS LIKE A NIGHTMARE FOR THE ONE WHO HAS TO MAKE A SCABBARD FOR IT. EITHER THAT OR SOMEONE TRIED TO RUN THROUGH SUPERMAN WITH IT.
I HAVE SEEN THIS SORT OF SHAPE ON BLADES FROM INDIA AND PERSIA BUT DON'T KNOW THE STORY OR REASONS FOR MAKEING THEM. MOST LIKELY SOMETHING TO DO WITH VARIOUS BELIEFS ABOUT THE SNAKE.
A NICE CONVERSATION PIECE AND NOT EVERYONE HAS ONE.

[Stan S.]

What you have here is a very cool khanda hilted ritual/temple/sacrificial sword most likely from Southern India. While its usefulness for sacrifices is questionable at best (although I could see the in-curve in the middle of the blade to be well suited for cattle decapitation) , these kind of swords are quite scarse and thus are always desirable. A unique and beutiful piece!

[Jim McDougall]

These kinds of doubly recurved blades are typically relatively modern interpretative weapons which are best described as South Indian flamboyant or 'temple' swords typically associated with the Nayars (a former military caste in Malabar regions). The extravagant blade forms, such as with this example, described by Rawson as 'deep bellied kopis form' is similar to one depicted as a 'virigal executioners sword of the 10th c.'. A virigal is a Hindu tombstone for military heroes (Rawson, p.41). It is noted that the sword design is derived from sculptures at Barabadur in Java.

These swords are typically regarded as for ceremonial or processional use and that "..display in the outward and visible aspect of the forms was what was sought " (Rawson, p.39) and that "...imaginative extravagance was allowed free play and that display was given an overwhelming preponderance over use". Further noted was that thier forms must be regarded as the products of fantasy rather than use.

These kinds of iconographic atavism are seen often in ethnographic weapons, and while the Hindu baskethilt suggests a weapon probably considerably antedating most of the flamboyant Nayar temple weapons, its overall intention seems to fall in place with similar uses. As far as I have known these weapons have not been used in sacrificial ceremonies, though as a processional type weapon this lacks the familiar piercings for attaching jingles.

For those who chose to read further:
"The Indian Sword" Philip Rawson, 1968
"Siviganga Swords" C.S.Clarke, 'Burlington Magazine', 1916,London
"Castes and Tribes of Southern India" E.Thurston, Madras, 1909 (Nayars)

[Sajen]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

It is noted that the sword design is derived from sculptures at Barabadur in Java.

Hello Jim,

do you mean Borobudur the Mahayana Buddist monument on Java?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Borobudur

Regards,

Detlef

[Jim McDougall]

Yes, that is the alternate spelling, same place. I am not certain which sculpture or frieze the author refers to, but the point is that many of these unusual shapes in blades seem derived iconographically from many of the temples and viragals from early times. There is a great deal of emphasis in the stylized character and flamboyance in many of the blade forms which while quite effective in artistic setting, was not likely practical in actual use. This is often the case when trying to understand the manner of actual use in these ancient forms, but in cases of traditional display they of course would not be required to serve other than for such ceremonial displays.

Best

Jim

[katana]

I had always thought of these as ceremonial, but a while ago I saw a similar one to the that posted. Slightly longer with a 'sickle-like' curve. The blade was heavy, fully sharpened and very business like. It was a single edged on the inside of the curve ....I wondered whether it could be used to 'hamstring' charging horses or had some other 'specialised' use

Kind Regards David

[ariel]

Thanks to all for your thoughts.
I have never believed in highly specialized functions: this one to cut horses' bridles, that one for hamstringing them, yet another for poking their eyes out from behind the corner on a moonless night.
Swords are divided mainly into stabbing and slashing, but even those can cross-function.
I am glad you saw another one like that; mine is also heavy, sharp and very business-like. I agree it is likely to be South Indian ( they always had a penchant for bizarre forms :-)). There must have been some kind of a pattern, but I guess we just do not know enough to pigeonhole it.... But this is true about a lot of other Eastern or African swords.
Please, continue offering your thoughts and suggestions. Much appreciated.

[Jim McDougall]

I think a glance into Rawson and Egerton will show this type sword corresponding to iconographic styles and most likely from Deccan to southern India, and these as I had noted seem largely in a 'revival' sense representing the flamboyant forms of historic earlier times.
Naturally, these are for visual effect and undulating or serpentine blades do not offer particularly any notable advantage in actual combative use, but most likely disadvantage in that regard. The idea of weapons for specific purpose such as 'hamstringing' etc.based on blade shapes is of course not in my opinion feasible but sounds interesting.
Weapons intended for ceremonial, processional or rituals (not necessarily sacrificial) are inclined to promote dramatic effect, and references to such weapons being held in front of participating individuals in a bearing type position suggest these kinds of purposeful display.

[katana]

Hi Jim ,
we had a interesting sword posted by Ariel a while ago.... which seemed to be specifically aimed at injurying horses and was a common tactic employed in battle.

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ight=hamstring

All the best
David

[VANDOO]

HERE ARE A COUPLE ALONG THE SAME LINES. THE SPLIT TIP ON ONE MAKES IT A ZULFIKAR FORM

[ariel]

Originally Posted by katana

Hi Jim ,
we had a interesting sword posted by Ariel a while ago.... which seemed to be specifically aimed at injurying horses and was a common tactic employed in battle.

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ight=hamstring

All the best
David

Yes, I remember it. Artzi restored it a bit and currently it is in a collection in Israel, recently published in a "private collection book". It appears to be Spanish.
Still, battle is such an intense environment, that carrying different, very heavy and unwieldy weapons for a specific task that may or may not occur .... doesn't sound like a great idea.
Remember Monty Python's How To Defend Yourself Against A Man Armed With A Banana ( cucumber, asparagus etc)?

[ariel]

Originally Posted by VANDOO

HERE ARE A COUPLE ALONG THE SAME LINES. THE SPLIT TIP ON ONE MAKES IT A ZULFIKAR FORM

Interestingly, both have Kaudi.... Nepal, Bengal?

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by katana

Hi Jim ,
we had a interesting sword posted by Ariel a while ago.... which seemed to be specifically aimed at injurying horses and was a common tactic employed in battle.

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ight=hamstring

All the best
David

Hi David,
I had forgotten all about that thing! It was an anomaly to be sure, and certainly not commonly seen features on a blade for cavalry or for that matter any military purpose I can think of. While the terrible practice of deliberately incapacitating horses was certainly something done in the throes of combat, it was accomplished with conventional weapons, not specifically designed 'tools' as far as I know.

I recall when I first saw this, the curiously angled distal part of the blade and the serpentine section above it really defy all practicality toward combat use as far as I could see. Interestingly the blade profile did in degree remind me of the Nayar temple sword types as well as the earlier Barabadur type mentioned in my previous post (Rawson).

Since there seem to be at least two of these seemingly fanciful weapons, it would be interesting if anyone could present more on what these might have been intended for. Obviously the military was not likely to have weapons for the ritual type situations we are discussing, but perhaps these might have been implements for foragers, such as sickle type use to harvest fodder for the horses. It seems few references focused on cavalry attend to the more mundane aspects in campaigns, but it seems this idea for such a 'weapon'.

All the best,
Jim

[eftihis]

Hi, here is another of the "zulfikar" variation, i once had in my collection.

[ariel]

Guys, the pattern seems to be wider than I thought

Perhaps, it is not an anomaly and, based on the sturdiness of the blades, not a parade one as well.
Most importantly, the Dhu-l-Faqar samples absolutely negate Hindu sacrificial function.

[Stan S.]

I still think the incurved mid-section of the blade could indicate a sacrifical purpose. It ofcourse could be juts a random feature but to me it looks like something well suited to fit cattle's neck. The blade being sharp is another indication of this theory. Are there any nicks to the edge that could be a result of an actual usage? If so, what part of teh blade is nicked?

[Jim McDougall]

It is always tempting and often compelling to attempt to explain unusual or even somewhat fanciful designs in ethnographic edged weapons blades, and as described by Christopher Spring in his "African Arms and Armour" the West typically has the need to find such explanations in these unusual ethnographic forms.

Much of this phenomenon has of course evolved from the countless 'exotic' weapons brought back from colonial campaigns and international expansion in recent centuries. It seems that many catalog descriptions seen through the years have developed an almost cliche' pattern of assigning terms such as 'executioners' or 'sacrificial' to many weapons with dramatically exaggerated features in the blade size or shape.

Examples of this can be seen in the often dramatic and almost fanciful blades on many African edged weapons; in the frightening choppers and arms brought out in volume after the Boxer Rebellion in China; and of course many other instances from many other cultures. Much of the romanticized and flowery descriptions in narratives and literature of Victorian times (which gave us fanciful terms like 'scimitar') also were often the foundation for 'collectors terms' with most of these evolving through transliteration and base misunderstanding by writers and perpetuated by thier readers.

In my perception, many ethnographic weapon and particularly blade forms derive from iconographic sources. Many of these are quite ancient and in friezes or sculptures such as described in India, and appear to be in many cases to have profoundly influenced many of these blade forms . These are typically depictive of intense mythological dramas in the heritage of the Hindu Faith, and may be of course considered interpretive in some degree , with these blade forms perhaps illustrated in accord with thier portrayal suitably emphasized in form.
In most cases it is considered that these are keenly accurate, however some of the more dramatic blade forms apparantly suggesting use in combat defy understanding of their actual practicality. Many of these forms said to have been used by the Nayar warriors have become the votive forms used in Temple rituals, and produced in accord with these early forms. The forward curves and dramatically shaped blades on these are votive and presumably used processionally, often with jingles and other apotropaic devices or motif added.

Unless we find evidence of one of these used in the actual Karma Kanda application in Vedic ritual, as we have with examples of the kora, kukri and ram dao in Bengal, Nepal regions, I feel this type weapon is distinctly representative of traditional Indian forms as described.

[Stan S.]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

Unless we find evidence of one of these used in the actual Karma Kanda application in Vedic ritual, as we have with examples of the kora, kukri and ram dao in Bengal, Nepal regions, I feel this type weapon is distinctly representative of traditional Indian forms as described.

I agree 100%. My thoughts were merely a speculation

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by Stan S.

I agree 100%. My thoughts were merely a speculation

Well noted Stan, and I realized that and your observations reflect exactly the kind of thinking which should always be exercised in evaluating these kinds of ethnographic weapons. I always think of it very much in terms of forensics in historical detection on weapons. We're totally on the same page!!!

All the best,
Jim

[Jim McDougall]

Just for informations sake, these almost wildly recurved blades are also seen in the Transcaucasian swords known as 'kardok', described by J.Zichy in his "A Magyar Faj Vandor Pa'sa" (Budapest, 1897) . The title may be misspelled but I cannot read the handwriting in the notes from the donor.
These appear with notes on the so called 'Black Sea yataghan' later identified by Ariel as the Laz bichagi, but which for years were termed Kurdish-Armenian yataghans (Triikman/Jacobsen 1941; Seifert 1962).

These unusually recurved swords have been suggested to have come from earlier iconographic sources or traditionally revived forms and seem to have appeared around first half 19th century and to have diminished around the turn of the century. They are recognized with splayed fishtail or horned pommels, and some of the examples carry Caucasian style bifurcated pommel similar to the shashka.

While the same questions arise as to actual combat plausibility of these unusual blades (as noted on the Indian forms by E.Jaiwent Paul) they are clearly not intended as sacrificial or temple swords, but may have carried traditional impetus as ceremonial or court type weapons.

[DaveA]

Originally Posted by VANDOO

HERE ARE A COUPLE ALONG THE SAME LINES. THE SPLIT TIP ON ONE MAKES IT A ZULFIKAR FORM

I have recently seen a strongly recurved (I mean strongly, like an S ) zulfikar similar to these examples, with a partially (intermittently) serrated blade and tulwar-like hilt. The split blades are more separated. So sorry not to have a picture to post at this time. It was amazing to hold and I have no doubt it would be a formidable weapon if needed, but still … very odd! The dealer wants a <<cough>> $$$$ price for it and I'm tempted based on my own fascination with the type. What do my friends here on the forum have to say regarding relative scarcity of the type? Ethnographic interest and significance? Anything that is a mystery is especially interesting to me.

I thank you in advance for your comments.

Best Regards,

Dave A.

[Jens Nordlunde]

Wandoo,
The two swords you show both seem to have a cho, while the other swords shown dont.
Does anyone know why?
Jens