Identification help?

[DaveA]

Hello,

A contact of mine is asking for help with ID on this sword. European swords are (mostly) not in my area of study. Any comments you have will be most helpful.
I'm sorry that I don't have dimensions to share, but the basket finger guard should give you some idea of the size.

Thank you.

Dave A.

[CSinTX]

Looks like a quality modern build to me. Curious to see what others think.

[corrado26]

After Norman Dixon, The Rapier and Small Sword 1460-1820 the pommel is from 1600-1630 but the style of the hilt with its guards 100 years earlier. Over that I think the blade is too short and so I take this for a modern fake.
corrado26

[DaveA]

Thank you very much for the frank comments. I thought that the condition of this sword looked too good for the age/type suggested by the overall design. I'm no expert so I am grateful that the EAA Forum certainly can bring it forward when called upon. My humble thanks.

Dave A.

[cornelistromp]

I prefer a picture of the guard and not the inner guard.
maybe you can post some more pictures or a link , so it is very poor material?

hilt is Norman type 43 1550-1630 and the egg-shaped pommel is a variation of type 20 again popular in the second quarter of the 17th century.
the inner guard is of an unusual type, a variation of type 22

The rapier has been over cleaned, especially the blade, but does not look bad.

I don't think it is a fake, my impression is that is a genuine sword from the second quarter of the 17th century ca 1630-1640
(not a rapier the ao length must be >112cm)

best,
jasper

[DaveA]

I have requested more pictures, especially close ups of hilt, guard, pommel and any markings on the blade. Stand by.

Dave A

[cornelistromp]

correction of my previous post !
the inner Guard is not a variation of type 22 but the mirror image of type21!


ie the sword is a left hander, made for a left-handed person!

best
jasper

[DaveA]

Could this left-handed sword, apparently shorter than normal, been intended for use in parrying?

Could the shorter length of blade be a result of a broken blade that was cut down?

Could the shorter length indicate the sword was made for a child or perhaps someone else with less arm strength?

Close up photos are coming soon.

Dave A.

[cornelistromp]

why do you think the blade is shortened?

please give is the dimensions and place some pictures of the point.

a sword of this type with an ao length of 90-100cm is fine for 1640

[iskender]

from far away this looks like a decent german sword in my insignificant opinion with a solinger blade. greetings iskender

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by DaveA

Could this left-handed sword, apparently shorter than normal, been intended for use in parrying?

Could the shorter length of blade be a result of a broken blade that was cut down?

Could the shorter length indicate the sword was made for a child or perhaps someone else with less arm strength?

Close up photos are coming soon.

Dave A.

That was an interesting a well placed suggestion Dave. Those are all quite plausible explanations for a shorter than usual blade. The use of dual swords in combat was an occasional instance, and there were dual sets of rapiers known as a 'case'.

[ulfberth]

Hi all,

As for being an Original or not, when zooming in on these pictures detail gets lost just before the point they should become visible.
What is visible in the pictures is that this is not a left hand sword.
If you look at the position of the thumb ring and the position of the branch protecting the thumb it becomes clear that its a right hand sword.
Im not so sure the sword is too short either, the type as a one handed sword and keeping mind that this guard is not that heavy I would say between 100 CM and 110 is normal ( give or take a few CM )


kind regards

Ulfberth

[cornelistromp]

Originally Posted by ulfberth

Hi all,

As for being an Original or not, when zooming in on these pictures detail gets lost just before the point they should become visible.
What is visible in the pictures is that this is not a left hand sword.
If you look at the position of the thumb ring and the position of the branch protecting the thumb it becomes clear that its a right hand sword.
Im not so sure the sword is too short either, the type as a one handed sword and keeping mind that this guard is not that heavy I would say between 100 CM and 110 is normal ( give or take a few CM )


kind regards

Ulfberth

Hi Ulfberth,
sorry to have to say that this sword can not be hold (properly) in your right hand, then the bracket is in the way.
it is 100% a left hander.

please compare and see post #7 this is the same innerguard for a right handed sword.

maybe a picture can be posted with the sword in the left and right hand, thumb over the ring, index finger around the ricasso, then it will be very obvious.

The length can be anything, the few of this type that I have measured were between 90-100cm, Iam curious what the length of this one measures.

best,
jasper

[ulfberth]

Well that's good news Jasper, it means at least one of us is going to learn something.
The more knowledge that can be shared the better

Originally Posted by cornelistromp

Hi Ulfberth,
sorry to have to say that this sword can not be hold (properly) in your right hand, then the bracket is in the way.
it is 100% a left hander.

please compare and see post #7 this is the same innerguard for a right handed sword.

maybe a picture can be posted with the sword in the left and right hand, thumb over the ring, index finger around the ricasso, then it will be very obvious.

The length can be anything, the few of this type that I have measured were between 90-100cm, Iam curious what the length of this one measures.

best,
jasper

kind regards Ulfberth

[iskender]

gentlemen, there is a tread from 12. november 2008 from michael trömner showing " A fine South German One and a Half Sword ca 1525 " I`m correct to assume the guard is a mirror variant of the sword shown above ? When yes do we have a left and right version? As for the theorie this could be thougt as a " Linkhanddolch" i suppose rather not ,i dont see noble fights in my visions of the 80Year-War ending up as the 30 Year-War. on most of the paintings and "kupferstiche" out of that time ,you can see horrible scenes of people killing,torturing and massacre each other with pistols ,muskets, axes, halberts,swords,polarms, cannons etc. the rest suspended on trees ,beheaded and burnt on the pyre! it also would be interesting when somebody nows about the stamp of the smith and his succsessors,i have seen a similar on a german sword of justice made in solingen. A nice Weekend to you all !!! Iskender

[cornelistromp]

hi Iskender,

yes correct, for rapiers there are left and right hand versions, this is indicated by the known inner and outer guard types which are mirrored so that the rapier can be used for the left hand.



Just as today there are left and right handed people, the above sword is a sword for a left handed guy, this has nothing to do with a left handed dagger. besides the length is too large for that.

best,
Jasper

[iskender]

Originally Posted by cornelistromp

hi Iskender,

yes correct, for rapiers there are left and right hand versions, this is indicated by the known inner and outer guard types which are mirrored so that the rapier can be used for the left hand.



Just as today there are left and right handed people, the above sword is a sword for a left handed guy, this has nothing to do with a left handed dagger. besides the length is too large for that.

best,
Jasper

Thanks for the information! iskender

[corrado26]

I found at a German dealer the sword shown by the fotos attached. It is described as German about 1560 and shows very similar details to the piece in question. But look at its hilt, it differs very much! So I am still convinced that the sword in question is a fake!
corrado26

[cornelistromp]

Hi Corrado,

Iam sorry but what you're saying in above post makes absolutely no sense.

the innerguard you posted is another inner guard type; Norman type 17.
Further, an inner guard type is not limited to a specific type of hilt, but may occur at different type of hilts over a longer time span.

For example, see the attachement a two-handed sword from 1540 with the same type of inner guard, type 21, as the one under discussion, but for the right hand. so this innerguard was already in use 100years earlier as the sword of post 1.
and this type of sword hilt type 43 (1550-1630) in a paining The Company of Captain Rosecrans by Cornelis Ketel, 1588. the innerguard is probably of type 18 or 20.

it's fine that you think the sword is a fake, but you need to come up with more convincing substantiation!

best,
jasper

[CSinTX]

Originally Posted by corrado26

I found at a German dealer the sword shown by the fotos attached.

Is this a Fricker sword? Lots to be suspect of there. In my opinion they are both modern builds.

[Cathey]

Hi Guys

I have been watching this thread with interest and also support the view that the sword is original.

I think that given the quality and quantity of questionable rapiers on the market as collectors we may be becoming jaded. What I mean is that we expect every rapier we see to be a fake, I know I have been guilty of this on many occasions.

Both Rex and I have probably walked away from some good swords over the years just because we went in assuming something will be wrong with it and then convinced ourselves that something was.

Nice sword and I also support the left handed theory.

Cheers Cathey and Rex

[ulfberth]

Originally Posted by Cathey

Hi Guys

I have been watching this thread with interest and also support the view that the sword is original.

I think that given the quality and quantity of questionable rapiers on the market as collectors we may be becoming jaded. What I mean is that we expect every rapier we see to be a fake, I know I have been guilty of this on many occasions.

Both Rex and I have probably walked away from some good swords over the years just because we went in assuming something will be wrong with it and then convinced ourselves that something was.

Nice sword and I also support the left handed theory.

Cheers Cathey and Rex

This is exactly why we need detailed pictures, I do have concerns about this sword but the pictures are just not clear enough to come to a conclusion, neither the one ore the other.
However it has been shown and explained before on this very forum and in great detail and in all the relevant context, but sometimes people just believe what they want to believe.

Kind regards

Ulfberth

[DaveA]

Here are more pictures provided to me today by the sword's owner. I'm looking forward to your comments.

Thank you.

Dave A.

[DaveA]

More pictures of the mystery sword. Thanks for the comments.

Dave A.

[DaveA]

Colleagues,

I have received information privately from several trusted sources that compels me to conclude this sword is a recent and reasonably well executed forgery. I am posting this message in the public forum for the record with the hope that it helps prevent anyone from using the commentary in this thread as a basis for authentication. The details will remain private so as not to educate forgers.

Thank you every one for your public and private comments. I'm honored by your attention to my questions.

Kind Regards,

Dave A.

[cornelistromp]

@Dave
I would ask you to publish the reasons here in the post, the benefit to warn prospective buyers is larger than the benefit of a single forger.

except for the pitting that looks very artificial and new bonded grip nothing suspicious can be seen, I conclude.
Nevertheless pitting gives enough reason for doubt.So looking forward to the support of your claim given by your several trusted sources.


attached some recently made reproductions, very difficult to distinguish from the real thing, one of them was recently offered by a well-known auction house as original. After my notification this sword was withdrawn and re-offered as XXcentury.

best,
jasper

[ulfberth]

Dear LS,

Of all pictures posted in this thread there is only one sword Original , just one that's all, its actually sad but true.
From the pictures as posted here there is no problem to detect this and see the difference, sometimes this is not possible to tell from a picture.
If you want to take a guess or know you may PM me, I don't want to make the wrong people smarter.

kind regards

Ulfberth

[fernando]

This theme of swords for the left hand is most interesting. While those for the right hand were potentialy produced for "pre-sales stock", the ones for left handed owners would have to be ordered, hence the rarity of examples available.
I am pleased to have this basket sword, possibly Italian, end XVI century, inequivocally made for a left hander; something i only noticed when it arrived from the seller.

.

[cornelistromp]

Originally Posted by ulfberth

Dear LS,

Of all pictures posted in this thread there is only one sword Original , just one that's all, its actually sad but true.
From the pictures as posted here there is no problem to detect this and see the difference, sometimes this is not possible to tell from a picture.
If you want to take a guess or know you may PM me, I don't want to make the wrong people smarter.

kind regards

Ulfberth

mystery and riddles are not in place, actually transparency is always better.
everyone can declare his own opinion, there is nothing wrong with that.
if you believe that a sword can be fake, you can freely and simply say that, it's your opinion.


Besides there are only two swords in this thread where authenticity can be a question:
the two hander in Item 17 and Fernando's rapier (very, I mean extremely beautiful !!!!) are certainly good and the swords in post 26 are known to be reproductions.

so only two remain: the sword under discussion and the example of a German Dealer from post 18.The sword of the German dealer, I find "questionable" and I leave aside for now.

the sword under discussion;
Based on the style of hilt and pommel and blade,+ the poor pictures of post 1 , this sword looks right and genuine.

however after seeing the high res pictures of the later post 23 , the pitting looks artificially manipulated , because of that I have to adjust my opinion to unsure and doubtful.
I can not 100% say that it is a reproduction, for which I would need to see sword in hand. For me personally this sword with this kind of pitting would be less interesting.

CSinTX, Corrado26, DaveA and Ulfberth are firmer in their opinions and point/tend to recent reproduction. if you add my less positive opinion to it , I think you can get the picture.

best,
Jasper

[CSinTX]

Originally Posted by fernando

I am pleased to have this basket sword, possibly Italian,
.

What a great looking piece! And look at that pommel! Built with just one quillon?