Sumatran, Borneo or Moro???

VVV · 6th February 2006, 11:41 PM

The second strange blade I found has a Barong resembling
blade with a broad fuller.
It's much lighter than an ordinary Barong.
Ivory hilt and silver ferrule with flowery pattern.

Any ideas what it could be?

Michael

LabanTayo · 6th February 2006, 11:46 PM

michael,
dang, where do you come up with these pieces???

thats one hell of a mixbag of influences.
it looks like a cut down barong, rehilted in Leyte.
i'm stumped too. send it to me so i can study it.

VVV · 7th February 2006, 04:01 PM

Interesting new track,

Why do you think of Leyte for the hilt?

Michael

VVV · 8th February 2006, 12:49 PM

I recieved an e-mail from another collector that he think this is a Moro Shandigan Barung with a variation of the Naga hilt (see Cato).
I find this info very probable.

Michael

Rick · 8th February 2006, 02:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by VVV

I recieved an e-mail from another collector that he think this is a Moro Shandigan Barung with a variation of the Naga hilt (see Cato).
I find this info very probable.

Michael

I can see why he would think so but the barring on the blade and the way it is cut down to a neck at the hilt seems very un-Moro to me .
I (like Shelley) wonder if it has not been modified by another culture .
Is this blade chisel edged (flat on the other side) Michael ?

Can we have some more pictures ?
I'd like to see the detailing on the punto and the other side of the blade .

VVV · 8th February 2006, 05:20 PM

Rick, LabanTayo and others,

Here are a couple of additional pictures.
The blade looks identical on both sides.
Please note the peculiar small hook close to the hilt?
Look forward to your comments.

Michael

Rick · 8th February 2006, 07:30 PM

I've got to admit to being stumped .

The decoration on the punto does not strike me as quite traditional okir patterns . The blade seems a bit thin for a barung but I have never handled a shandigan so I may well be off on this observation .

What is the material between the ivory and the punto ?

The filework at the forte of the blade is pretty puzzling as it does not quite look like the work seen on tenegre/sansibar/binangon blades .
Maybe we should be looking toward Borneo ....

VVV · 8th February 2006, 08:12 PM

Rick,

It's a horn ring.
I have seen a resembling decoration as on the silver on two of my Melanau
(NW Borneo) parang - a Sadap and a Parang Pedang.
Enclosed pictures for you to compare.
Otherwise usually the Melanau parang have heavy and thick blades.
I just noticed that there are 3 dots in a (female) triangle at the bottom
of the scabbard which is usually attributed to Sumatra?

Michael

Rick · 8th February 2006, 09:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by VVV

Rick,

It's a horn ring.
I have seen a resembling decoration as on the silver on two of my Melanau
(NW Borneo) parang - a Sadap and a Parang Pedang.
Enclosed pictures for you to compare.
Otherwise usually the Melanau parang have heavy and thick blades.
I just noticed that there are 3 dots in a (female) triangle at the bottom
of the scabbard which is usually attributed to Sumatra?

Michael

Interesting stuff Michael ; I must admit to being ignorant about the three dot = female Sumatran style motif you mention .

There is a traced Moro Sumatran connection in history of the S. Philippines .
If I recall correctly Saleeby mentions it in *The History of Sulu*.

Re the scabbard :
I would like to comment on the resemblance to a Dyak scabbard in that this one has a neck like the mandau scabbards .

VVV · 9th February 2006, 06:06 AM

Thanks for mentioning the Moro Sumatran connection.
As you know there are several Kris Sundang and some Kampilan in the
museum collections being collected in Sumatra.
Probably from the local colony of Moros that once moved south.
So why not a 2nd generation style Barong?
Seems like all of the Sumatran/Borneo/Moro tracks still are probable?

Michael

PS On the VVV pattern with flowers I forgot to add that this is also
sometimes found on Java. But I don't think that this weapon has had
anything to do with Java.

Rick · 9th February 2006, 03:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by VVV

Thanks for mentioning the Moro Sumatran connection.
As you know there are several Kris Sundang and some Kampilan in the
museum collections being collected in Sumatra.
Probably from the local colony of Moros that once moved south.
So why not a 2nd generation style Barong?
Seems like all of the Sumatran/Borneo/Moro tracks still are probable?

Michael

PS On the VVV pattern with flowers I forgot to add that this is also
sometimes found on Java. But I don't think that this weapon has had
anything to do with Java.

Hi Michael , IIRC the Sumatran connection with Sulu involved a noble family fleeing strife in Sumatra for the safety of the S. Philippines .
Mabagani or Federico could probably correct me or elaborate further .

Since there was trading all over the archipelago tracks could lead anywhere .

I just get this Borneo feeling from the piece ; but that feeling and $3.00 will get you a cup of coffee .

VVV · 9th February 2006, 03:47 PM

Hi Rick,

I was of course referring to the other way around, the "Colonies" of Moros settling in Sumatra.
Let's see if somebody else has any new tracks and ideas?

Michael

Rick · 9th February 2006, 05:00 PM

Sorry Michael , my ignorance is showing .

I was unaware of the existence of Moro colonies in Sumatra ; would love to know more .

MABAGANI · 10th February 2006, 06:33 PM

The blade shape, forte and scabbard point towards a rehilt of a Moro spearhead. There's too much metal around the forte to be a cut down barung. I've seen this forte form on a kris shaped spear. Double edged barung usually go half or two thirds of the blade spine, this shape goes down much of the rear. The punto design is still consistent with Sulu ukkil and the horn ring is not uncommon. The pommel is odd in that it was made to match the hook on the blade, intentionally designed to show that it was not a traditional barung. Possibly retired to a sword or rehilted to look like a sword for trade, nicely done work. Thinking out loud, btw...lolz.

VVV · 10th February 2006, 09:05 PM

Hi Mabagani,

Interesting twist. "Recycled" spearhead swords seems to be common in f.i. Indonesia.
I am not so familiar with Moro spearheads so I have tried to find pictures of any resembling
this blade shape but couldn't.
Do you have any reference pictures?

Michael

Spunjer · 10th February 2006, 10:44 PM

michael,

check the last few posts on this thread...

http://www.vikingsword.com/ubb/Forum1/HTML/001736.html

maybe Kino can repost his budiak?

btw, how wide is the blade???

VVV · 11th February 2006, 09:29 AM

Hi Spunjer,

It's 4,5 cm. Nice thread with some great spearheads, thanks.
And my blade is just slightly longer than the XXL Budiak posted.
I do have a Budiak so I put them next to each other.
From bird perspective I agree that there are some resemblance.
But looking from the side the Budiak resemblance is lost.
Also my blade has both a different tip and tang than a Budiak.
If you look at the blade thickness picture above it's obviously much flatter
than a Budiak and thinnest at its center.
Maybe Mabagani had another kind of spear in mind?

Michael

Dajak · 11th February 2006, 04:00 PM

Hi this is not from borneo the motifs on you can find on many weapons from malay indonesia there is no influence from Borneo on this Item

VVV · 12th February 2006, 04:31 PM

I think Mabagani's idea about the blade originating from a spearhead is interesting.
I don't know much about Moro spearheads but I noticed that some Dayak spearheads also are flat with a flat tang.
Pict 1 is the X blade next to a Budiak and a Dayak spear.
Pict 2 is the Budiak and the X blade from the side.
Pict 3 is the Dayak spear and the X blade.
Are there any Moro spears that resembles this Dayak spear?
Ben/Dajak, I still think Borneo could be a possible origin even if this blade doesn't belong to any of the documented swords.
But I am open to more specific arguments why it's impossible that it ever could have been assembled in Borneo?

Michael

Dajak · 12th February 2006, 09:18 PM

Hi Michael the silverwork could be done everywhere so that is hard to say but it looks more like an Mandaya I had an Mandaya dagger blade did looks a lot like this one .
Kampilan was also in Use by the seadayaks but is not from borneo even moro kriss can be find on Borneo but not really made on borneo the base for the handle is different from the spears on borneo or knife"s
I have an parang sangkit from north borneo but with an moro binding on the hilt like an moro kris but typical parang sangkit blade
I just wanna says if it is a mixed up difficult to say but the blade is not typical borneo style an the handle also not the silver maybe .

6th February 2006, 11:41 PM	#1
VVV Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Sweden Posts: 1,637	Sumatran, Borneo or Moro??? The second strange blade I found has a Barong resembling blade with a broad fuller. It's much lighter than an ordinary Barong. Ivory hilt and silver ferrule with flowery pattern. Any ideas what it could be? Michael Attached Images

8th February 2006, 05:20 PM	#6
VVV Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Sweden Posts: 1,637	Rick, LabanTayo and others, Here are a couple of additional pictures. The blade looks identical on both sides. Please note the peculiar small hook close to the hilt? Look forward to your comments. Michael Attached Images

8th February 2006, 08:12 PM	#8
VVV Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Sweden Posts: 1,637	Rick, It's a horn ring. I have seen a resembling decoration as on the silver on two of my Melanau (NW Borneo) parang - a Sadap and a Parang Pedang. Enclosed pictures for you to compare. Otherwise usually the Melanau parang have heavy and thick blades. I just noticed that there are 3 dots in a (female) triangle at the bottom of the scabbard which is usually attributed to Sumatra? Michael Attached Images

12th February 2006, 04:31 PM	#19
VVV Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Sweden Posts: 1,637	I think Mabagani's idea about the blade originating from a spearhead is interesting. I don't know much about Moro spearheads but I noticed that some Dayak spearheads also are flat with a flat tang. Pict 1 is the X blade next to a Budiak and a Dayak spear. Pict 2 is the Budiak and the X blade from the side. Pict 3 is the Dayak spear and the X blade. Are there any Moro spears that resembles this Dayak spear? Ben/Dajak, I still think Borneo could be a possible origin even if this blade doesn't belong to any of the documented swords. But I am open to more specific arguments why it's impossible that it ever could have been assembled in Borneo? Michael Attached Images

6th February 2006, 11:46 PM	#2
LabanTayo Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Kansas City Posts: 177	michael, dang, where do you come up with these pieces??? thats one hell of a mixbag of influences. it looks like a cut down barong, rehilted in Leyte. i'm stumped too. send it to me so i can study it.

7th February 2006, 04:01 PM	#3
VVV Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Sweden Posts: 1,637	Interesting new track, Why do you think of Leyte for the hilt? Michael

8th February 2006, 12:49 PM	#4
VVV Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Sweden Posts: 1,637	I recieved an e-mail from another collector that he think this is a Moro Shandigan Barung with a variation of the Naga hilt (see Cato). I find this info very probable. Michael

8th February 2006, 07:30 PM	#7
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,291	I've got to admit to being stumped . The decoration on the punto does not strike me as quite traditional okir patterns . The blade seems a bit thin for a barung but I have never handled a shandigan so I may well be off on this observation . What is the material between the ivory and the punto ? The filework at the forte of the blade is pretty puzzling as it does not quite look like the work seen on tenegre/sansibar/binangon blades . Maybe we should be looking toward Borneo ....

9th February 2006, 06:06 AM	#10
VVV Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Sweden Posts: 1,637	Thanks for mentioning the Moro Sumatran connection. As you know there are several Kris Sundang and some Kampilan in the museum collections being collected in Sumatra. Probably from the local colony of Moros that once moved south. So why not a 2nd generation style Barong? Seems like all of the Sumatran/Borneo/Moro tracks still are probable? Michael PS On the VVV pattern with flowers I forgot to add that this is also sometimes found on Java. But I don't think that this weapon has had anything to do with Java.

9th February 2006, 03:47 PM	#12
VVV Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Sweden Posts: 1,637	Hi Rick, I was of course referring to the other way around, the "Colonies" of Moros settling in Sumatra. Let's see if somebody else has any new tracks and ideas? Michael

9th February 2006, 05:00 PM	#13
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,291	Sorry Michael , my ignorance is showing . I was unaware of the existence of Moro colonies in Sumatra ; would love to know more .

10th February 2006, 06:33 PM	#14
MABAGANI Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 221	The blade shape, forte and scabbard point towards a rehilt of a Moro spearhead. There's too much metal around the forte to be a cut down barung. I've seen this forte form on a kris shaped spear. Double edged barung usually go half or two thirds of the blade spine, this shape goes down much of the rear. The punto design is still consistent with Sulu ukkil and the horn ring is not uncommon. The pommel is odd in that it was made to match the hook on the blade, intentionally designed to show that it was not a traditional barung. Possibly retired to a sword or rehilted to look like a sword for trade, nicely done work. Thinking out loud, btw...lolz.

10th February 2006, 09:05 PM	#15
VVV Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Sweden Posts: 1,637	Hi Mabagani, Interesting twist. "Recycled" spearhead swords seems to be common in f.i. Indonesia. I am not so familiar with Moro spearheads so I have tried to find pictures of any resembling this blade shape but couldn't. Do you have any reference pictures? Michael

10th February 2006, 10:44 PM	#16
Spunjer Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Witness Protection Program Posts: 1,730	michael, check the last few posts on this thread... http://www.vikingsword.com/ubb/Forum1/HTML/001736.html maybe Kino can repost his budiak? btw, how wide is the blade???

11th February 2006, 09:29 AM	#17
VVV Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Sweden Posts: 1,637	Hi Spunjer, It's 4,5 cm. Nice thread with some great spearheads, thanks. And my blade is just slightly longer than the XXL Budiak posted. I do have a Budiak so I put them next to each other. From bird perspective I agree that there are some resemblance. But looking from the side the Budiak resemblance is lost. Also my blade has both a different tip and tang than a Budiak. If you look at the blade thickness picture above it's obviously much flatter than a Budiak and thinnest at its center. Maybe Mabagani had another kind of spear in mind? Michael

11th February 2006, 04:00 PM	#18
Dajak Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 951	Hi this is not from borneo the motifs on you can find on many weapons from malay indonesia there is no influence from Borneo on this Item

12th February 2006, 09:18 PM	#20
Dajak Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 951	Hi Michael the silverwork could be done everywhere so that is hard to say but it looks more like an Mandaya I had an Mandaya dagger blade did looks a lot like this one . Kampilan was also in Use by the seadayaks but is not from borneo even moro kriss can be find on Borneo but not really made on borneo the base for the handle is different from the spears on borneo or knife"s I have an parang sangkit from north borneo but with an moro binding on the hilt like an moro kris but typical parang sangkit blade I just wanna says if it is a mixed up difficult to say but the blade is not typical borneo style an the handle also not the silver maybe .