Chinese Cannon Find ???

Rikkn · 17th January 2011, 08:01 PM

I got this at a gun show in Columbia, SC over the weekend. My guess is Chinese. An Oriental man at the show offered the translation " TURTLE ISLAND CURRENT " for the bigger writing, and " 1363 " and a makers name for the smaller writing. I do not think it is a swivel gun, but not sure. Opinions ??

Here are pictures & details.

OAL 28 3/8 "
Tapers from 2 1/4 to 1 3/4 ( over flats ) then back to 2 1/4 " at front sight
.80 bore

Rikkn · 17th January 2011, 08:02 PM

More pictures

fernando · 17th January 2011, 08:51 PM

Most interesting.
Let's see what the experts say about it !

Gavin Nugent · 18th January 2011, 03:24 AM

I'm a sabre man not a fire power man but I must say I like this a lot.
I hope Philip finds with post and comments on it.

Gav

Philip · 18th January 2011, 06:30 AM

Thanks for posting these interesting pics. The following features lead me to ID this as Japanese, not Chinese:
1. The expansion of the muzzle is one of the shapes encountered on Japanese barrels. Some of them are even more pronounced, a survival of the very large muzzle moldings on the firearms brought by the Portuguese in 1543. Chinese barrels are typically round at the muzzle (although they may be octagonal or even 12-sided at the breech), and the expansion is much more conservative, typically a slight conical swell with a small intermediary molding as is also seen on many Indian and Central Asian guns.
2. This barrel has perforated lugs on the underside, designed to be attached to the forestock via lateral pins or pegs. Chinese barrels, like their Indian and Near Eastern counterparts, are invariably attached by means of bands or capucines.
3. The rather blocky shape of the sights, and the position of the backsight some distance ahead of the breech, are features associated with Japan. Chinese sights consist of a low blade-shaped foresight and a standing backsight with a V notch or an aperture, located just above the priming pan.

Philip · 18th January 2011, 06:41 AM

Oops, forgot something.
From the dimensions, this appears to have been made for a rampart gun, mounted in a wood stock of generally similar shape to those of the normal sized Japanese musket. No swivels were provided, the forestock was rested on a parapet or stuck through a firing-port in a castle wall. Probably rested on some sort of cushion since I've seen many complete examples and the wood on most isn't all dinged up as you'd expect if the gun were just placed on a hard surface when fired.

The short buttstocks of Japanese firearms were designed to be held against the cheek, not shoulder, when fired. This is based on the original Indo-Portuguese design brought to Japan. Almost identical butt shapes were also used in the Malay archipelago until the late 19th cent., and a very rare gun from Goa of very similar design is preserved in a museum in Dresden.

Japanese matchlocks appear to have changed little during the 350-odd years that they remained in use, although there are minor differences in butt profiles, muzzle shapes, and lock details that point to regional differences and different artisanal traditions. Most of the reference material that explains this is in Japanese.

Rikkn · 21st January 2011, 03:20 AM

Do you think I should display it as is, or try to restore it ?

17th January 2011, 08:01 PM	#1
Rikkn Member Join Date: Jan 2010 Location: Ormond by the Sea, Fl Posts: 50	Chinese Cannon Find ??? I got this at a gun show in Columbia, SC over the weekend. My guess is Chinese. An Oriental man at the show offered the translation " TURTLE ISLAND CURRENT " for the bigger writing, and " 1363 " and a makers name for the smaller writing. I do not think it is a swivel gun, but not sure. Opinions ?? Here are pictures & details. OAL 28 3/8 " Tapers from 2 1/4 to 1 3/4 ( over flats ) then back to 2 1/4 " at front sight .80 bore Attached Images

17th January 2011, 08:02 PM	#2
Rikkn Member Join Date: Jan 2010 Location: Ormond by the Sea, Fl Posts: 50	More pictures Attached Images

18th January 2011, 03:24 AM	#4
Gavin Nugent Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 2,818	Very nice I'm a sabre man not a fire power man but I must say I like this a lot. I hope Philip finds with post and comments on it. Gav

18th January 2011, 06:30 AM	#5
Philip Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: California Posts: 1,036	Looks Japanese to me Thanks for posting these interesting pics. The following features lead me to ID this as Japanese, not Chinese: 1. The expansion of the muzzle is one of the shapes encountered on Japanese barrels. Some of them are even more pronounced, a survival of the very large muzzle moldings on the firearms brought by the Portuguese in 1543. Chinese barrels are typically round at the muzzle (although they may be octagonal or even 12-sided at the breech), and the expansion is much more conservative, typically a slight conical swell with a small intermediary molding as is also seen on many Indian and Central Asian guns. 2. This barrel has perforated lugs on the underside, designed to be attached to the forestock via lateral pins or pegs. Chinese barrels, like their Indian and Near Eastern counterparts, are invariably attached by means of bands or capucines. 3. The rather blocky shape of the sights, and the position of the backsight some distance ahead of the breech, are features associated with Japan. Chinese sights consist of a low blade-shaped foresight and a standing backsight with a V notch or an aperture, located just above the priming pan.

18th January 2011, 06:41 AM	#6
Philip Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: California Posts: 1,036	configuration of gun Oops, forgot something. From the dimensions, this appears to have been made for a rampart gun, mounted in a wood stock of generally similar shape to those of the normal sized Japanese musket. No swivels were provided, the forestock was rested on a parapet or stuck through a firing-port in a castle wall. Probably rested on some sort of cushion since I've seen many complete examples and the wood on most isn't all dinged up as you'd expect if the gun were just placed on a hard surface when fired. The short buttstocks of Japanese firearms were designed to be held against the cheek, not shoulder, when fired. This is based on the original Indo-Portuguese design brought to Japan. Almost identical butt shapes were also used in the Malay archipelago until the late 19th cent., and a very rare gun from Goa of very similar design is preserved in a museum in Dresden. Japanese matchlocks appear to have changed little during the 350-odd years that they remained in use, although there are minor differences in butt profiles, muzzle shapes, and lock details that point to regional differences and different artisanal traditions. Most of the reference material that explains this is in Japanese.

17th January 2011, 08:51 PM	#3
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Most interesting. Let's see what the experts say about it !

21st January 2011, 03:20 AM	#7
Rikkn Member Join Date: Jan 2010 Location: Ormond by the Sea, Fl Posts: 50	Do you think I should display it as is, or try to restore it ?