which language it could be ?

Cerjak · 10th December 2012, 07:28 PM

I hope that somebody could tell me which language it is ..

Rick · 10th December 2012, 07:35 PM

I will guess that this 'buss last saw action in Sumatra .
Maybe that will help with the script .
I expect a lot of those marks are talismanic in nature; but there is still something there to read .

VVV · 10th December 2012, 07:48 PM

Please show the rest, too.
In the center there are the seven seals of Solomon (= very famous pan-Islamic talismanic motifs).
It's strange that motif #2 is supposed to be #7. Otherwise they are in the proper order with the star (#1) repeated.

Michael (the sign resembling # stands for the angel Mika'il)

Cerjak · 10th December 2012, 07:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by VVV

Please show the rest, too.
In the center there are most of the seven seals of Solomon (= very famous pan-Islamic talismanic motifs).

Michael

you will find all the pics in my thread "Need id and translation for a big blunderbuss."
Please tell me more if possible about this blunderbuss marks

Regards

Cerjak

VVV · 10th December 2012, 08:10 PM

OK,

Here is a copy from Canaan. It's in German but it gives you some ideas. The main thing is that it is based on the symbolism of the number 7.

Michael

Reference: Canaan, T. 1914. Aberglaube und Volksmedizin im Lande der Bibel. Hamburg: L. Friederichsen & Co.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cerjak

you will find all the pics in my thread "Need id and translation for a big blunderbuss."
Please tell me more if possible about this blunderbuss marks

Regards

Cerjak

VVV · 10th December 2012, 08:23 PM

Here I found a short explanation in French, too.
It's from Doutté and the square with the seals in is a version of the Latin square where, usually a formula or passage from the Qur'an, is repeated in such a way that the same symbol/word only occurs once in each direction.
If you combine the table from Canaan with the explanation from Doutté I think you will get most of it...

Michael

Reference: Doutté, Edmond. 1909. Magie & religion dans l’Afrique du Nord. Alger: Typographe Adolphe Jourdan.

Cerjak · 11th December 2012, 06:28 PM

I have to says that his discussion forum is really fantastic and I there is in this place so much knowledge ,Michael I have really appreciate your precious help ,I was not expect this documentation about pan-Islamic talismanic motifs and I can’t thank you enough for your answer. I was afraid that all those signs was without significations and now I will appreciate much more this Blunderbuss.

kind regards

Cerjak

TribalBlades · 11th December 2012, 07:18 PM

are these symbols by chance from pre-islamic times?

David · 11th December 2012, 09:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TribalBlades

are these symbols by chance from pre-islamic times?

I'd say that would be very difficult to prove, though many occult minds like to believe these symbols ancient. Many of these magickal alphabets that are not from actual languages don't really appear in writing until the 15th or 16th centuries.
BTW, while certainly talismanic and i suppose technically a "seal" i would not refer to this as one of Solomon's seals. Originally Solomon's Seal was said to be a signet ring used to command spirits and demons. There have been many variations of the seal depicted over the centuries, most often in disk form as a medallion and featuring either the 6-pointed star of the pentagram.
http://www.google.com/search?q=seal+...w=1394&bih=768

VVV · 11th December 2012, 10:10 PM

David,

If you are referring to the Western Esotericism (i.e. Christian) and their, and later Jewish, versions of the stars in your link you might be correct about the age (and in most cases they are much later).
But in this case it is Islamic Esotericism. For instance the main Islamic authority, al-Buni died in 1225!
The 7 seals of Solomon was not his invention, even if he of course covers them in his works, which means that they are much older than this.
Your story about the signet ring is mentioned in text from Doutté above and it is the seal #1 of the traditional seven. It alternates in shape between the six-sided (Canaan) or the pentagram (Doutté).

Michael

VVV · 12th December 2012, 08:10 AM

I just double checked in a reference work on Islamic artifacts. According to Savage-Smith the 7 seals of Solomon first started to appear in the 12th century on talismans etc.

Michael

Reference: Savage-Smith, Emelie. 1997. Magic and Islam, in Francis Maddison and Emelie Savage-Smith (eds.). Science, Tools & Magic (The Nasser D. Khalili Collection of Islamic Art). Part II. Oxford: Oxford University Press.

David · 12th December 2012, 05:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by VVV

I just double checked in a reference work on Islamic artifacts. According to Savage-Smith the 7 seals of Solomon first started to appear in the 12th century on talismans etc.

Michael

Reference: Savage-Smith, Emelie. 1997. Magic and Islam, in Francis Maddison and Emelie Savage-Smith (eds.). Science, Tools & Magic (The Nasser D. Khalili Collection of Islamic Art). Part II. Oxford: Oxford University Press.

Hey Michael. Here is an interesting link to more info on the Seven Seals. What i notice in my research is that these seals are usually simply called the Seven Seals, not the Seven Seals of Solomon. I think what may have happened is that some folks have melded these two ideas. Tradition has it that the Seal of Solomon was a single signet ring. I believe the Seven Seals are something separate from that. That is probably the source of my confusion here.

http://www.scribd.com/doc/89426578/T...of-the-Symbols

VVV · 12th December 2012, 06:14 PM

Thanks David,

Graham's article is about the non-islamic origin of these signs, which of course is the reason that he is skipping the (Seven Seals) "of Solomon" in his article to make his point.
However, in the Islamic reference works which he quotes from (I have glanced through Winkler and read almost all of the other mentioned, three of them are even quoted above) these signs are described as the seven seals of Solomon. And if we can agree that the context is Islamic, and not Jewish or Babylonian, on this blunderbuss then this decides which culture that rules what they should be called. If the star (#1) would have been on a Jewish artifact I would have chosen to name it the shield of David, instead of the seal of Solomon etc...
I will read the article when I find time BUT what disturbs me is that there is nothing to find about where this article was published, and even on the author himself, on Google Scholar.
This implies that even if he may know what he talks about nobody else seems to have checked his article to confirm this is the case. So unfortunately for some reason he does not seem to have any credibility as a scholarly reference himself, in contrast to the references I have brought up (and also Graham is using).

Michael

David · 12th December 2012, 07:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by VVV

And if we can agree that the context is Islamic, and not Jewish or Babylonian, on this blunderbuss then this decides which culture that rules what they should be called. If the star (#1) would have been on a Jewish artifact I would have chosen to name it the shield of David, instead of the seal of Solomon etc...

I think we can probably be fairly certain that we are dealing with this seal in an Islamic context. However i don't quite understand your above statement since both Solomon and David were kings of Israel and of the Jewish faith long before the origins of Islam. Both the six-pointed star and the 5-pointed star were used in that culture as well. I have indeed heard the 5-pointed star referred to as the "Shield of David" while the 6-pointed star is more often referred to as the "Star of David" (Magen David), however the 6-pointed star is also often referred to as the "Shield of David" as well. Likewise, in terms of the one single "Seal of Solomon" (Solomon's ring) as a symbol, both the pentagram and the hexagram have been associated with this. What i'm getting at here is that over the years there has been so much conjecture as well as changing ideas in various cultures to the point were no matter what your academic credentials might be, having a definitive answer as to exactly what these seals are or if there is any validity to connecting them to Solomon or not seems pointless.

VVV · 12th December 2012, 07:41 PM

I also consider Solomon to have been a Jewish king BUT according to Islam he was a muslim prophet - the same was Moses, Jesus, Abraham etc. According to Islamic sources it is the original religion of Adam, not something originating with Mohammad. I really don't want to go into theological matters on who is "correct" on this (not being Muslim myself).
I leave this discussion now because I think I have made my point, either you follow the academic approach or the "popular" approach to evaluate sources to solve this issue.

Michael

PS I was wrong above on Graham, actually he is found on Google Scholar. He is the same Graham that has published several scholarly articles on biochemistry and molecular biology. Magic etc. seems to be his hobby and the articles he has written on this subject are published in magical organization's newsletters etc.

T. Koch · 12th December 2012, 08:34 PM

David and Michael, I have no wish to engage in your discussion here, I just want to point out that David is also a prophet or rasul according to the Quran.

Take care guys! - Thor

A.alnakkas · 12th December 2012, 08:40 PM

In Islamic sources (Quran and authentic sunnah) there are no symbols. The star of David was adopted by some Muslim peoples but it has no reference as far as I know in any of the sources.

Hope this helps.

David · 12th December 2012, 11:12 PM

Thanks guys. I am not looking to get into a discussion of religion here for sure...

Best to keep that out of the discussion. But i am aware that all these biblical characters are also considered prophets in Islam.

Still not convinced that this particular issue can be solved either by the academic or popular approach.

10th December 2012, 08:23 PM	#6
VVV Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Sweden Posts: 1,637	Here I found a short explanation in French, too. It's from Doutté and the square with the seals in is a version of the Latin square where, usually a formula or passage from the Qur'an, is repeated in such a way that the same symbol/word only occurs once in each direction. If you combine the table from Canaan with the explanation from Doutté I think you will get most of it... Michael Reference: Doutté, Edmond. 1909. Magie & religion dans l’Afrique du Nord. Alger: Typographe Adolphe Jourdan. Attached Images Last edited by VVV; 10th December 2012 at 08:54 PM.

12th December 2012, 06:14 PM	#13
VVV Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Sweden Posts: 1,637	Thanks David, Graham's article is about the non-islamic origin of these signs, which of course is the reason that he is skipping the (Seven Seals) "of Solomon" in his article to make his point. However, in the Islamic reference works which he quotes from (I have glanced through Winkler and read almost all of the other mentioned, three of them are even quoted above) these signs are described as the seven seals of Solomon. And if we can agree that the context is Islamic, and not Jewish or Babylonian, on this blunderbuss then this decides which culture that rules what they should be called. If the star (#1) would have been on a Jewish artifact I would have chosen to name it the shield of David, instead of the seal of Solomon etc... I will read the article when I find time BUT what disturbs me is that there is nothing to find about where this article was published, and even on the author himself, on Google Scholar. This implies that even if he may know what he talks about nobody else seems to have checked his article to confirm this is the case. So unfortunately for some reason he does not seem to have any credibility as a scholarly reference himself, in contrast to the references I have brought up (and also Graham is using). Michael Last edited by VVV; 12th December 2012 at 06:26 PM.

10th December 2012, 07:28 PM	#1
Cerjak Member Join Date: Jan 2012 Location: FRANCE Posts: 1,065	which language it could be ? I hope that somebody could tell me which language it is .. Attached Images

10th December 2012, 07:35 PM	#2
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,293	I will guess that this 'buss last saw action in Sumatra . Maybe that will help with the script . I expect a lot of those marks are talismanic in nature; but there is still something there to read .

10th December 2012, 07:48 PM	#3
VVV Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Sweden Posts: 1,637	Please show the rest, too. In the center there are the seven seals of Solomon (= very famous pan-Islamic talismanic motifs). It's strange that motif #2 is supposed to be #7. Otherwise they are in the proper order with the star (#1) repeated. Michael (the sign resembling # stands for the angel Mika'il)

11th December 2012, 06:28 PM	#7
Cerjak Member Join Date: Jan 2012 Location: FRANCE Posts: 1,065	there is in this place so much knowledge here ! I have to says that his discussion forum is really fantastic and I there is in this place so much knowledge ,Michael I have really appreciate your precious help ,I was not expect this documentation about pan-Islamic talismanic motifs and I can’t thank you enough for your answer. I was afraid that all those signs was without significations and now I will appreciate much more this Blunderbuss. kind regards Cerjak

11th December 2012, 07:18 PM	#8
TribalBlades Member Join Date: Dec 2012 Posts: 33	are these symbols by chance from pre-islamic times?

11th December 2012, 10:10 PM	#10
VVV Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Sweden Posts: 1,637	David, If you are referring to the Western Esotericism (i.e. Christian) and their, and later Jewish, versions of the stars in your link you might be correct about the age (and in most cases they are much later). But in this case it is Islamic Esotericism. For instance the main Islamic authority, al-Buni died in 1225! The 7 seals of Solomon was not his invention, even if he of course covers them in his works, which means that they are much older than this. Your story about the signet ring is mentioned in text from Doutté above and it is the seal #1 of the traditional seven. It alternates in shape between the six-sided (Canaan) or the pentagram (Doutté). Michael

12th December 2012, 08:10 AM	#11
VVV Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Sweden Posts: 1,637	I just double checked in a reference work on Islamic artifacts. According to Savage-Smith the 7 seals of Solomon first started to appear in the 12th century on talismans etc. Michael Reference: Savage-Smith, Emelie. 1997. Magic and Islam, in Francis Maddison and Emelie Savage-Smith (eds.). Science, Tools & Magic (The Nasser D. Khalili Collection of Islamic Art). Part II. Oxford: Oxford University Press.

12th December 2012, 07:41 PM	#15
VVV Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Sweden Posts: 1,637	I also consider Solomon to have been a Jewish king BUT according to Islam he was a muslim prophet - the same was Moses, Jesus, Abraham etc. According to Islamic sources it is the original religion of Adam, not something originating with Mohammad. I really don't want to go into theological matters on who is "correct" on this (not being Muslim myself). I leave this discussion now because I think I have made my point, either you follow the academic approach or the "popular" approach to evaluate sources to solve this issue. Michael PS I was wrong above on Graham, actually he is found on Google Scholar. He is the same Graham that has published several scholarly articles on biochemistry and molecular biology. Magic etc. seems to be his hobby and the articles he has written on this subject are published in magical organization's newsletters etc.

12th December 2012, 08:34 PM	#16
T. Koch Member Join Date: Jul 2012 Location: Mother North Posts: 189	David and Michael, I have no wish to engage in your discussion here, I just want to point out that David is also a prophet or rasul according to the Quran. Take care guys! - Thor

12th December 2012, 08:40 PM	#17
A.alnakkas Member Join Date: Nov 2010 Location: Kuwait Posts: 1,340	In Islamic sources (Quran and authentic sunnah) there are no symbols. The star of David was adopted by some Muslim peoples but it has no reference as far as I know in any of the sources. Hope this helps.

12th December 2012, 11:12 PM	#18
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,127	Thanks guys. I am not looking to get into a discussion of religion here for sure... Best to keep that out of the discussion. But i am aware that all these biblical characters are also considered prophets in Islam. Still not convinced that this particular issue can be solved either by the academic or popular approach.