Ottoman/ turkish hallmarks

francantolin · 28th June 2017, 09:28 PM

Hello,
I post these pictures for have an advice about the hallmarks/tughras on the mounts of an oriental sword with european blade ( other post ).

Are they turkish ? Silver hallmarks ?
Can someone date it ?
Thank you !

Kubur · 29th June 2017, 04:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by francantolin

Hello,
I post these pictures for have an advice about the hallmarks/tughras on the mounts of an oriental sword with european blade ( other post ).

Are they turkish ? Silver hallmarks ?
Can someone date it ?
Thank you !

Hi,

Yes they are.
Look at this page:
http://www.oriental-arms.com/item.php?id=3673
You have also the Passau wolf on your blade.
I'm very jealous it's a very good sword!!
20th c. are you joking?
I would say 18 or 19 th c.
Jim will tell you...

Best,
Kubur

francantolin · 29th June 2017, 10:21 PM

Hello Kubur,

Really thank's a lot for your precious comments !

For the turkish marks/tughras I was not sure, the auction company sold it for a 20th century sword... I found it strange because the scabbard too seems old.. !!
I knew the blade was old but didn't know about origin,
so Big Thanks with the Passau Wolf I didn't know ! It's really interesting !
I find this on internet

Kind Regards

Frankie

mariusgmioc · 29th June 2017, 10:26 PM

Please show us photos of the whole sword!

I wonder where did Kubur see the Passau wolf as I can't see any single photo of the blade?!

PS: All right, now I get it. And yes, I agree with Kubur with the observation that I think the blade is significantly older than the hilt.

francantolin · 29th June 2017, 10:35 PM

It's on the other post

I'll transfer it

francantolin · 29th June 2017, 10:39 PM

Shazaam !

estcrh · 30th June 2017, 08:38 AM

The hilt has a Persian look to me, anyone else think so?

Ibrahiim al Balooshi · 30th June 2017, 12:04 PM

Ottoman (Othmanli) I think close to this form ..

estcrh · 30th June 2017, 03:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ibrahiim al Balooshi

Ottoman (Othmanli) I think close to this form ..

And just who decided this was Ottoman and not Persian...the MET!!! Ha, they have been wrong so many times, what elements say Ottoman? Do any point to Persia??

francantolin · 30th June 2017, 04:32 PM

Hello, museum and auctions specialists sometimes go wrong. This one I think its ottoman,
if you look the thread named "turkish straight sword with european blade", a lot of interesting comments came out about hilt shape origin ( and straight blades too ).
I made this new one for comments about the hallmarks/tughras when I received the sword and. "Zoom" the pictures...

ArmsAndAntiques · 30th June 2017, 06:11 PM

The sword shown from the Met has multiple early Ottoman features including the bow-tie shaped scabbard fitting, the fine detailed niello scrollwork, and the detailed floral shape where the crossguard inserts into the top fitting.

While I've seen that last feature on Persian shamshirs, the feature is itself more indicative of Ottoman influence on Persian arms than vice versa.

Ibrahiim al Balooshi · 8th July 2017, 04:34 AM

For a full description on all aspects of the seal or Tughra please see http://islamic-arts.org/2012/tughra-...e-magnificent/

Ibrahiim al Balooshi · 8th July 2017, 06:44 AM

TUGHRA OCCUR ON MANY OBJECTS NOT ONLY DOCUMENTS...SEE

https://www.google.com/search?q=OTTO...yFHJokVc_CX4M:

and below on a silver sprinkler, a spoon, a coin and some sword blades.
Also illustrated are some of the Tughra on a page showing which Sultan they belonged to.

francantolin · 9th July 2017, 10:08 PM

Thank you Ibrahiim !
I kwew the two last tughras,
I can't recognize mine,
Maybe they "only" are marks from a region or a iron/silver worker.

Ibrahiim al Balooshi · 10th July 2017, 01:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by francantolin

Thank you Ibrahiim !
I kwew the two last tughras,
I can't recognize mine,
Maybe they "only" are marks from a region or a iron/silver worker.

No it seems that there are extensive variations with a host of different stamps / makers... It is just that til this latest work appeared detailed information has been hard to find Please see http://kurkman.com/silverpreface.htm
At the preface it states how good it is that now at last this work has been done... I for one mirror that comment...

Ibrahiim al Balooshi · 10th July 2017, 01:51 AM

The point about Ottoman (Othmanli) silver stamps and Tughra is, I feel, so important as to apply more detail and include the main pulse of information also to the blademarks thread but I will leave that to Forum.

The book which has much detail is only recently available as below; It is obtainable in many outlets at a variety of new and used prices and typically at

https://www.google.com/search?q=otto...hrome&ie=UTF-8

Here is a write up to accompany the detail;

Quote"The book presents readers with a luxurious volume and a dynamic manual for the study of Ottoman silverware as well as its coinage

A book by Garo Kurkman which has been recently republished with the support of the Istanbul Chamber of Commerce (İTO) brings the tradition of silver marks and tughras, monograms of sultans in stylized script, to light.
For centuries, during the expansion of the Ottoman Empire, it was obligatory for gold and silver wares to be assayed and stamped at the state's mint. These marks are cataloged in the book, titled “Ottoman Silver Marks.” The book contains a complete list of the tughra marks of the sultans and other silver marks.

During the Ottoman era, the Darphane (mint) served as an institution to control the distribution of precious metals by testing the purity of the gold and silver used to fashion precious objects and strike coins. An official stamp guaranteeing the purity, usually 90 percent for silver, accompanied by the monogram signature (tughra) of the reigning sultan was stamped on all precious metalwork.

The marking was done by a special assay office in the Ottoman mint. This practice was virtually unknown in other Islamic dynasties, and the Ottoman Empire was the first Islamic state to make use of this practice. The system of silver marks began in the reign of Sultan Mehmet the Conqueror just after the conquest of İstanbul in 1453. In his noteworthy book, Kurkman presents readers with a luxurious volume and a dynamic manual for the study of Ottoman silverware as well as its coinage.

The book is an accumulation of research launched decades ago by Kurkman whose interest and expertise in numismatics goes back to his youth. His study, which is abundantly illustrated with beautiful photographs of luxurious metal objects, stands as the first systematic one on Ottoman assay marks and silver stamps, both religious and secular.

Kurkman says in the preface of the book that lack of publications on Ottoman silver marks forced him to prepare such a work to bring together his years-long research, which he first published in 1996. Kurkman says in the book that foreign silver materials, which were made specifically for the Ottomans and brought to the empire, had to be sent to the Darphane to be marked with Ottoman marks.

So, he says, Ottoman marks along with foreign marks can both be found on some materials. Kurkman's book also contains individual town marks and maker's marks.

"Golden ink"
During the Ottoman Empire, every sultan had a unique tughra. Although the tughra of a sultan could have some minor changes due to the various masters who made it, the basic parts of the tughra -- the text written and the order of the words -- did not change. Although the tughras of all sultans appeared to be similar, they were in fact different as to their content and style.

It is interesting to note that many of the earlier sultans' signatures are done in black ink, whereas in later examples, these signatures, called “tughra” in Turkish, are done in golden ink.

The peak of power and magnificence experienced by the Ottoman state during the 16th century is reflected quite visibly in the signatures from this period; there are dark blues and golds done in careful balance, flowery designs and spirally decorations called “Halic isi” on the signatures.
"Always the victorious"

Although the first known tughra dates back to the 14th century, the reign of Orhan Gazi, it was during the time of Sultan Mehmet the Conqueror when calligraphers began designing more artistic tughras for the sultans. From this time on, the sultans also began adding some other titles before their names such as han, muzaffer (victorious), el-muzaffer daima (always the victorious) and sah (shah).

The title “muzaffer” is seen to first be used by Mahmut II, and the title “muzaffer daima” was used between the reigns of Sultan Mehmet the Conqueror and Süleyman the Magnificent, while “el-muzaffer daima” was used between the rule of Selim II and that of Mehmet VI.

Some tughras also include mahlas, or nicknames, of the sultans. However, nicknames are more frequently seen on coins."Unquote.

Apostolos · 2nd May 2024, 03:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by francantolin

Thank you Ibrahiim !
I kwew the two last tughras,
I can't recognize mine,
Maybe they "only" are marks from a region or a iron/silver worker.

It's a typically Caucasian silver work and bears the maker's mark.

Apostolos · 2nd May 2024, 04:37 PM

It's a typical Caucasian silver work bearing the silver master's mark.

serdar · 18th August 2024, 06:58 PM

Those marks are smiths marks, and that sword is a later 19 century at best, that blade is not a real passau blade, it is a fake passau probably made in east, wolf is wrongly put in line with text, and on real it is not in line but 180•
Alsso text, style and dxdcution is wrong.

28th June 2017, 09:28 PM	#1
francantolin Member Join Date: Sep 2014 Posts: 877	Ottoman/ turkish hallmarks Hello, I post these pictures for have an advice about the hallmarks/tughras on the mounts of an oriental sword with european blade ( other post ). Are they turkish ? Silver hallmarks ? Can someone date it ? Thank you ! Attached Images

29th June 2017, 10:21 PM	#3
francantolin Member Join Date: Sep 2014 Posts: 877	Hello Kubur, Really thank's a lot for your precious comments ! For the turkish marks/tughras I was not sure, the auction company sold it for a 20th century sword... I found it strange because the scabbard too seems old.. !! I knew the blade was old but didn't know about origin, so Big Thanks with the Passau Wolf I didn't know ! It's really interesting ! I find this on internet Kind Regards Frankie Attached Images

29th June 2017, 10:26 PM	#4
mariusgmioc Member Join Date: Sep 2014 Location: Austria Posts: 1,903	Please show us photos of the whole sword! I wonder where did Kubur see the Passau wolf as I can't see any single photo of the blade?! PS: All right, now I get it. And yes, I agree with Kubur with the observation that I think the blade is significantly older than the hilt. Last edited by mariusgmioc; 29th June 2017 at 10:54 PM.

29th June 2017, 10:39 PM	#6
francantolin Member Join Date: Sep 2014 Posts: 877	Shazaam ! Attached Images

30th June 2017, 12:04 PM	#8
Ibrahiim al Balooshi Member Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Buraimi Oman, on the border with the UAE Posts: 4,408	Ottoman (Othmanli) I think close to this form .. Attached Images

29th June 2017, 10:35 PM	#5
francantolin Member Join Date: Sep 2014 Posts: 877	It's on the other post I'll transfer it

30th June 2017, 08:38 AM	#7
estcrh Member Join Date: Jun 2012 Location: USA Posts: 1,497	The hilt has a Persian look to me, anyone else think so?

30th June 2017, 04:32 PM	#10
francantolin Member Join Date: Sep 2014 Posts: 877	Hello, museum and auctions specialists sometimes go wrong. This one I think its ottoman, if you look the thread named "turkish straight sword with european blade", a lot of interesting comments came out about hilt shape origin ( and straight blades too ). I made this new one for comments about the hallmarks/tughras when I received the sword and. "Zoom" the pictures...

30th June 2017, 06:11 PM	#11
ArmsAndAntiques Member Join Date: Dec 2013 Posts: 80	The sword shown from the Met has multiple early Ottoman features including the bow-tie shaped scabbard fitting, the fine detailed niello scrollwork, and the detailed floral shape where the crossguard inserts into the top fitting. While I've seen that last feature on Persian shamshirs, the feature is itself more indicative of Ottoman influence on Persian arms than vice versa.

8th July 2017, 04:34 AM	#12
Ibrahiim al Balooshi Member Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Buraimi Oman, on the border with the UAE Posts: 4,408	For a full description on all aspects of the seal or Tughra please see http://islamic-arts.org/2012/tughra-...e-magnificent/ Attached Images

8th July 2017, 06:44 AM	#13
Ibrahiim al Balooshi Member Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Buraimi Oman, on the border with the UAE Posts: 4,408	TUGHRA OCCUR ON MANY OBJECTS NOT ONLY DOCUMENTS...SEE https://www.google.com/search?q=OTTO...yFHJokVc_CX4M: and below on a silver sprinkler, a spoon, a coin and some sword blades. Also illustrated are some of the Tughra on a page showing which Sultan they belonged to. Attached Images

9th July 2017, 10:08 PM	#14
francantolin Member Join Date: Sep 2014 Posts: 877	Thank you Ibrahiim ! I kwew the two last tughras, I can't recognize mine, Maybe they "only" are marks from a region or a iron/silver worker.

10th July 2017, 01:51 AM	#16
Ibrahiim al Balooshi Member Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Buraimi Oman, on the border with the UAE Posts: 4,408	The Book "Ottoman Silver Marks". The point about Ottoman (Othmanli) silver stamps and Tughra is, I feel, so important as to apply more detail and include the main pulse of information also to the blademarks thread but I will leave that to Forum. The book which has much detail is only recently available as below; It is obtainable in many outlets at a variety of new and used prices and typically at https://www.google.com/search?q=otto...hrome&ie=UTF-8 Here is a write up to accompany the detail; Quote"The book presents readers with a luxurious volume and a dynamic manual for the study of Ottoman silverware as well as its coinage A book by Garo Kurkman which has been recently republished with the support of the Istanbul Chamber of Commerce (İTO) brings the tradition of silver marks and tughras, monograms of sultans in stylized script, to light. For centuries, during the expansion of the Ottoman Empire, it was obligatory for gold and silver wares to be assayed and stamped at the state's mint. These marks are cataloged in the book, titled “Ottoman Silver Marks.” The book contains a complete list of the tughra marks of the sultans and other silver marks. During the Ottoman era, the Darphane (mint) served as an institution to control the distribution of precious metals by testing the purity of the gold and silver used to fashion precious objects and strike coins. An official stamp guaranteeing the purity, usually 90 percent for silver, accompanied by the monogram signature (tughra) of the reigning sultan was stamped on all precious metalwork. The marking was done by a special assay office in the Ottoman mint. This practice was virtually unknown in other Islamic dynasties, and the Ottoman Empire was the first Islamic state to make use of this practice. The system of silver marks began in the reign of Sultan Mehmet the Conqueror just after the conquest of İstanbul in 1453. In his noteworthy book, Kurkman presents readers with a luxurious volume and a dynamic manual for the study of Ottoman silverware as well as its coinage. The book is an accumulation of research launched decades ago by Kurkman whose interest and expertise in numismatics goes back to his youth. His study, which is abundantly illustrated with beautiful photographs of luxurious metal objects, stands as the first systematic one on Ottoman assay marks and silver stamps, both religious and secular. Kurkman says in the preface of the book that lack of publications on Ottoman silver marks forced him to prepare such a work to bring together his years-long research, which he first published in 1996. Kurkman says in the book that foreign silver materials, which were made specifically for the Ottomans and brought to the empire, had to be sent to the Darphane to be marked with Ottoman marks. So, he says, Ottoman marks along with foreign marks can both be found on some materials. Kurkman's book also contains individual town marks and maker's marks. "Golden ink" During the Ottoman Empire, every sultan had a unique tughra. Although the tughra of a sultan could have some minor changes due to the various masters who made it, the basic parts of the tughra -- the text written and the order of the words -- did not change. Although the tughras of all sultans appeared to be similar, they were in fact different as to their content and style. It is interesting to note that many of the earlier sultans' signatures are done in black ink, whereas in later examples, these signatures, called “tughra” in Turkish, are done in golden ink. The peak of power and magnificence experienced by the Ottoman state during the 16th century is reflected quite visibly in the signatures from this period; there are dark blues and golds done in careful balance, flowery designs and spirally decorations called “Halic isi” on the signatures. "Always the victorious" Although the first known tughra dates back to the 14th century, the reign of Orhan Gazi, it was during the time of Sultan Mehmet the Conqueror when calligraphers began designing more artistic tughras for the sultans. From this time on, the sultans also began adding some other titles before their names such as han, muzaffer (victorious), el-muzaffer daima (always the victorious) and sah (shah). The title “muzaffer” is seen to first be used by Mahmut II, and the title “muzaffer daima” was used between the reigns of Sultan Mehmet the Conqueror and Süleyman the Magnificent, while “el-muzaffer daima” was used between the rule of Selim II and that of Mehmet VI. Some tughras also include mahlas, or nicknames, of the sultans. However, nicknames are more frequently seen on coins."Unquote. Attached Images Last edited by Ibrahiim al Balooshi; 10th July 2017 at 02:06 AM.

2nd May 2024, 04:37 PM	#18
Apostolos Member Join Date: Feb 2013 Posts: 5	Not an Ottoman/Turkish at all. It's a typical Caucasian silver work bearing the silver master's mark.

18th August 2024, 06:58 PM	#19
serdar Member Join Date: Feb 2023 Posts: 56	Those marks are smiths marks, and that sword is a later 19 century at best, that blade is not a real passau blade, it is a fake passau probably made in east, wolf is wrongly put in line with text, and on real it is not in line but 180• Alsso text, style and dxdcution is wrong.