Tabak?

Sajen · 6th May 2012, 12:53 PM

Yesterday I win with help of a other member this philippine bolo and I think/believe that it is a Panpangan tabak. I think that it is a quite old one, maybe around 1900 and was surprised that it don't went much higher. What do you think?

All comments are very welcome,

Detlef

Lew · 6th May 2012, 02:27 PM

Congrats

You are correct a tabak circa 1900-10.

Lew

Sajen · 6th May 2012, 02:56 PM

Thank you Lew, do you think that there have been wire around the handle?

Regards,

Detlef

Lew · 6th May 2012, 06:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sajen

Thank you Lew, do you think that there have been wire around the handle?

Regards,

Detlef

Most definately unfortunately it came off. Still a nice solid older example

.

Sajen · 6th May 2012, 06:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lew

Most definately unfortunately it came off. Still a nice solid older example

.

Thank's again!

Robert · 6th May 2012, 06:31 PM

Hello Detlef and my congratulations to you on winning this most wonderful piece. If I had placed my bid like I thought I had it might have been the other way around.

Imagine My surprise when the auction ended and I saw the price that this went for and found I had forgotten to place my bid like I thought I had.

Well at least I know that it has gone to good home.

I agree with Lew on this except I think it could date from 1890 to about 1910. Look in the grooves for small holes where wire might have been fixed to the hilt right next to the collars. On almost all of the ones I have the wire decoration seems to have been added after the knives/swords were finished. Again my congratulations on your win and remember if you ever get tired of looking at this I will be more than happy to give it a new home with lots of new friends.

Robert

Battara · 6th May 2012, 08:46 PM

Interesting piece. The wrap may have had a thin band of brass and a twisted wire piece of brass, both encircling the hilt.

Sajen · 6th May 2012, 10:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Robert Coleman

Hello Detlef and my congratulations to you on winning this most wonderful piece. If I had placed my bid like I thought I had it might have been the other way around.

Imagine My surprise when the auction ended and I saw the price that this went for and found I had forgotten to place my bid like I thought I had.

Well at least I know that it has gone to good home.

I agree with Lew on this except I think it could date from 1890 to about 1910. Look in the grooves for small holes where wire might have been fixed to the hilt right next to the collars. On almost all of the ones I have the wire decoration seems to have been added after the knives/swords were finished. Again my congratulations on your win and remember if you ever get tired of looking at this I will be more than happy to give it a new home with lots of new friends.

Robert

Thank you Robert,

will look if I can find holes when I have it in my hands. When I ever get tired of it you will be the first who will know about!

Regards,

Detlef

Sajen · 6th May 2012, 11:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Battara

Interesting piece. The wrap may have had a thin band of brass and a twisted wire piece of brass, both encircling the hilt.

Thank you Jose,

when I have it I will check if there ever have been a wire around the hilt. What is your guess about the age?

Regards,

Detlef

Battara · 7th May 2012, 02:31 AM

Around the turn of the 20th century?

Sajen · 7th May 2012, 02:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Battara

Around the turn of the 20th century?

So we all have agreement!

Spunjer · 15th May 2012, 01:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sajen

Yesterday I win with help of a other member this philippine bolo and I think/believe that it is a Panpangan tabak....
All comments are very welcome,

Detlef

hello detlef,
beautiful tabak! i don't really have much in my collection in the way of luzon pieces, save for a first republic dagger and a tabak. have you etched it? it might be laminated. i was pleasantly surprise when i found out the blade on mine was laminated, which i thought it was unusual to see on tagalog weaponries.

btw, just a slight correction: it's not Panpangan or Pampangan. if you ask someone from Pampanga what do they call themselves, it's Kapampangan. might sound minor, but the prefix KA makes a lot of difference... not quite versed in kapampangan dialect, but in deep tagalog, Ka is used as a prefix to someone's name as a sign of respect.

Sajen · 15th May 2012, 05:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Spunjer

hello detlef,
beautiful tabak! i don't really have much in my collection in the way of luzon pieces, save for a first republic dagger and a tabak. have you etched it? it might be laminated. i was pleasantly surprise when i found out the blade on mine was laminated, which i thought it was unusual to see on tagalog weaponries.

btw, just a slight correction: it's not Panpangan or Pampangan. if you ask someone from Pampanga what do they call themselves, it's Kapampangan. might sound minor, but the prefix KA makes a lot of difference... not quite versed in kapampangan dialect, but in deep tagalog, Ka is used as a prefix to someone's name as a sign of respect.

Thank you Spunjer! Until now I don't received it but will try a etch when I have it in my hands. And thank you for the information about spelling Kapampangan.

Regards,

Detlef

Spunjer · 16th May 2012, 05:01 AM

yes, it will be interesting to see the lamination, if there's any. i was looking at some of the closeups and i think i see some squiggly lines, or perhaps i'm just seeing things, lol.
either way, it's an excellent catch!

Dimasalang · 16th May 2012, 07:01 AM

Blade vendors in the Philippines Ca.1913 selling what look to be similar knives.

Indianajones · 16th May 2012, 10:46 AM

Hi Detlef,
also congrats with this nice piece. Though -I know you always like to etch everything, but this piece has such a lovely old patine! If you etch it that will be gone forever!

Ofcourse its your piece but 'in the name of all nice 19th cent. blades' hope you'l think twice before dipping it into hot acid/vinegar.

Seems like your getting a quite nice Moluc/Philippine collection together! Interesting (unique?) combination!
Greets

Sajen · 16th May 2012, 06:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Indianajones

Hi Detlef,
also congrats with this nice piece. Though -I know you always like to etch everything, but this piece has such a lovely old patine! If you etch it that will be gone forever!

Ofcourse its your piece but 'in the name of all nice 19th cent. blades' hope you'l think twice before dipping it into hot acid/vinegar.

Seems like your getting a quite nice Moluc/Philippine collection together! Interesting (unique?) combination!
Greets

Hi Wouter,

like usual I will first have a look if I can see any traces of a lamination before I will etch it.

It is not only a Moluccas/Philippine collection but a Indonesian/Philippine collection!

Greets,

Detlef

Robert · 16th May 2012, 06:50 PM

Hello Detlef,
Normally I stay out of the etch don't etch controversy but on this I have to say please don't etch this piece. After you receive it I believe you will find that it probably has an inserted edge. Etching will bring this out but it will destroy the patina and IMHO all of the character it has developed over the long years since it was made.

Robert

Indianajones · 16th May 2012, 06:52 PM

Oke, yes sorry I could not NOT leave a comment on the etching as . . . .you might have guessed I also love this piece; such a jewel in nice condition! But who am I to tell you?!
To my opinion the hande would not have had a wire encircling also, as some do indeed. Put me on your list of 'wanna have that' pls

Even wider; Indonesia Philippines; like a North-South axis. Though interesting as there are a lot of comons/cultural links between Luzon and Moluccas and the Indonesian islands underneath (Timor etc)I now and than noticed.

Spunjer · 17th May 2012, 03:36 AM

oops, looks like i started something... didn't mean to put you in a predicament, detlef! by all means, it''s your choice. wouter and robert had excellent points as well.

Sajen · 17th May 2012, 01:09 PM

Don't worry friends, I will handle it very carefully!

Sajen · 5th June 2012, 07:54 PM

Have received it already longer. There is no evidence that there ever have been wire around the handle. After some aid the leather scabbard look very nice again, the white at the backside was relics of an old paper lable but nothing to read anymore. I have decided to let the blade patinated, I only have cleaned it carefully with WD 40. Here some additional pictures. Is it possible that the blade was made from a file? This is the second piece from the Philippines where I found this marks on the blade.

Regards,

Detlef

Lew · 6th June 2012, 01:27 AM

Detlef

Yours probably never had a wire wrap. Below is a tabak in my collection as you can see the holes were the wire wrap was attached.

Rick · 6th June 2012, 02:59 AM

Oh yes, made from a file .

What I really like about this example is the scabbard embossing .
I find it to be a bit out of the ordinary and quite nice !

Congratulations on this one Detlef .

Lew, that is a very interesting motto on your blade, "Philippino War Knife"

D'you suppose that was added after the fact to your excellent example ?

The piece is absolutely correct, but "Krieg " ??

Or does it say "Knife" ?

Lew · 6th June 2012, 04:54 AM

Actually Rick the 31st was stationed in the Philippines in 1918 and the initials are from the sellers great uncle who was stationed in the Philippines in 1918. I've been in contact with the curator at Fort Drum and he said he would love to have it for the war museum. Of course someone must have polished the blade at one point

.

http://www.drum.army.mil/AboutFortDr...useum_lv2.aspx

Btw it's knife

VANDOO · 6th June 2012, 04:59 AM

SEVERAL GREAT EXAMPLES SHOWN HERE NOT THE ONES WITH FANCY INLAYED BLADES OR CARVED HANDLES WITH SILVER BUT THE LEATHER SHEATHS ARE FIRST QUALITY ON SOME AND ALL ARE GOOD WORKING EXAMPLES.
THIS MAKES ME WONDER IF THIS DEGREE OF LEATHER WORK ORIGINATED WITH THE SPANISH PRESENCE WHO NO DOUBT COULD HAVE TAUGHT THE CRAFT TO LOCAL PHILIPINOS. THE WORKMANSHIP LOOKS SIMULAR TO SOME SPANISH WORK AND I THINK LEATHER WAS MORE IN USE IN SPAIN THAN IN THE PHILIPPINES. JUST CONJECTURE BUT IT SEEMS POSSIBLE TO ME AS WOOD SCABBARDS WOULD GENERALLY HOLD UP BETTER IN A DAMP CLIMATE AND BE EASILY AVAILABLE WHERE A LEATHER INDUSTRY MAY HAVE NOT DEVELOPED TO A LARGE EXTENT AS A RESULT. ALSO A LOT LESS CATTLE IN THE PHILIPPINES.

Lew · 6th June 2012, 05:05 AM

Maybe water buffalo leather?

Lew · 6th June 2012, 05:14 AM

This is another style of bolo from Pampanga the tip was broken off but still from the same period.

Sajen · 6th June 2012, 09:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lew

Detlef

Yours probably never had a wire wrap. Below is a tabak in my collection as you can see the holes were the wire wrap was attached.

Hello Lew,

I think so since I can't see such holes in the handle from mine. Very nice example you have there!

Regards,

Detlef

Sajen · 6th June 2012, 09:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rick

Oh yes, made from a file .

What I really like about this example is the scabbard embossing .
I find it to be a bit out of the ordinary and quite nice !

Congratulations on this one Detlef .

Thank you Rick, yes the embossing is very nice and after the maintenance it look now much better as before.

Regards,

Detlef

6th May 2012, 12:53 PM	#1
Sajen Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Germany, Dortmund Posts: 8,791	Tabak? Yesterday I win with help of a other member this philippine bolo and I think/believe that it is a Panpangan tabak. I think that it is a quite old one, maybe around 1900 and was surprised that it don't went much higher. What do you think? All comments are very welcome, Detlef Attached Images

16th May 2012, 07:01 AM	#15
Dimasalang Member Join Date: Aug 2008 Posts: 264	Blade vendors in the Philippines Ca.1913 selling what look to be similar knives. Attached Images

16th May 2012, 06:50 PM	#18
Robert EAAF Staff Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Centerville, Kansas Posts: 2,196	Hello Detlef, Normally I stay out of the etch don't etch controversy but on this I have to say please don't etch this piece. After you receive it I believe you will find that it probably has an inserted edge. Etching will bring this out but it will destroy the patina and IMHO all of the character it has developed over the long years since it was made. Robert Last edited by Robert Coleman; 17th May 2012 at 01:30 AM.

5th June 2012, 07:54 PM	#22
Sajen Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Germany, Dortmund Posts: 8,791	Have received it already longer. There is no evidence that there ever have been wire around the handle. After some aid the leather scabbard look very nice again, the white at the backside was relics of an old paper lable but nothing to read anymore. I have decided to let the blade patinated, I only have cleaned it carefully with WD 40. Here some additional pictures. Is it possible that the blade was made from a file? This is the second piece from the Philippines where I found this marks on the blade. Regards, Detlef Attached Images

6th June 2012, 01:27 AM	#23
Lew (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: East Coast USA Posts: 3,191	Detlef Yours probably never had a wire wrap. Below is a tabak in my collection as you can see the holes were the wire wrap was attached. Attached Images

6th May 2012, 02:27 PM	#2
Lew (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: East Coast USA Posts: 3,191	Congrats You are correct a tabak circa 1900-10. Lew

6th May 2012, 02:56 PM	#3
Sajen Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Germany, Dortmund Posts: 8,791	Thank you Lew, do you think that there have been wire around the handle? Regards, Detlef

6th May 2012, 06:31 PM	#6
Robert EAAF Staff Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Centerville, Kansas Posts: 2,196	Hello Detlef and my congratulations to you on winning this most wonderful piece. If I had placed my bid like I thought I had it might have been the other way around. Imagine My surprise when the auction ended and I saw the price that this went for and found I had forgotten to place my bid like I thought I had. Well at least I know that it has gone to good home. I agree with Lew on this except I think it could date from 1890 to about 1910. Look in the grooves for small holes where wire might have been fixed to the hilt right next to the collars. On almost all of the ones I have the wire decoration seems to have been added after the knives/swords were finished. Again my congratulations on your win and remember if you ever get tired of looking at this I will be more than happy to give it a new home with lots of new friends. Robert

6th May 2012, 08:46 PM	#7
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,226	Interesting piece. The wrap may have had a thin band of brass and a twisted wire piece of brass, both encircling the hilt.

7th May 2012, 02:31 AM	#10
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,226	Around the turn of the 20th century?

16th May 2012, 05:01 AM	#14
Spunjer Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Witness Protection Program Posts: 1,730	yes, it will be interesting to see the lamination, if there's any. i was looking at some of the closeups and i think i see some squiggly lines, or perhaps i'm just seeing things, lol. either way, it's an excellent catch!

16th May 2012, 10:46 AM	#16
Indianajones Member Join Date: Apr 2011 Posts: 180	Hi Detlef, also congrats with this nice piece. Though -I know you always like to etch everything, but this piece has such a lovely old patine! If you etch it that will be gone forever! Ofcourse its your piece but 'in the name of all nice 19th cent. blades' hope you'l think twice before dipping it into hot acid/vinegar. Seems like your getting a quite nice Moluc/Philippine collection together! Interesting (unique?) combination! Greets

16th May 2012, 06:52 PM	#19
Indianajones Member Join Date: Apr 2011 Posts: 180	Oke, yes sorry I could not NOT leave a comment on the etching as . . . .you might have guessed I also love this piece; such a jewel in nice condition! But who am I to tell you?! To my opinion the hande would not have had a wire encircling also, as some do indeed. Put me on your list of 'wanna have that' pls Even wider; Indonesia Philippines; like a North-South axis. Though interesting as there are a lot of comons/cultural links between Luzon and Moluccas and the Indonesian islands underneath (Timor etc)I now and than noticed.

17th May 2012, 03:36 AM	#20
Spunjer Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Witness Protection Program Posts: 1,730	oops, looks like i started something... didn't mean to put you in a predicament, detlef! by all means, it''s your choice. wouter and robert had excellent points as well.

17th May 2012, 01:09 PM	#21
Sajen Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Germany, Dortmund Posts: 8,791	Don't worry friends, I will handle it very carefully!

6th June 2012, 02:59 AM	#24
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,293	Oh yes, made from a file . What I really like about this example is the scabbard embossing . I find it to be a bit out of the ordinary and quite nice ! Congratulations on this one Detlef . Lew, that is a very interesting motto on your blade, "Philippino War Knife" D'you suppose that was added after the fact to your excellent example ? The piece is absolutely correct, but "Krieg " ?? Or does it say "Knife" ?

6th June 2012, 04:54 AM	#25
Lew (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: East Coast USA Posts: 3,191	Actually Rick the 31st was stationed in the Philippines in 1918 and the initials are from the sellers great uncle who was stationed in the Philippines in 1918. I've been in contact with the curator at Fort Drum and he said he would love to have it for the war museum. Of course someone must have polished the blade at one point . http://www.drum.army.mil/AboutFortDr...useum_lv2.aspx Btw it's knife

6th June 2012, 04:59 AM	#26
VANDOO (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: OKLAHOMA, USA Posts: 3,138	SEVERAL GREAT EXAMPLES SHOWN HERE NOT THE ONES WITH FANCY INLAYED BLADES OR CARVED HANDLES WITH SILVER BUT THE LEATHER SHEATHS ARE FIRST QUALITY ON SOME AND ALL ARE GOOD WORKING EXAMPLES. THIS MAKES ME WONDER IF THIS DEGREE OF LEATHER WORK ORIGINATED WITH THE SPANISH PRESENCE WHO NO DOUBT COULD HAVE TAUGHT THE CRAFT TO LOCAL PHILIPINOS. THE WORKMANSHIP LOOKS SIMULAR TO SOME SPANISH WORK AND I THINK LEATHER WAS MORE IN USE IN SPAIN THAN IN THE PHILIPPINES. JUST CONJECTURE BUT IT SEEMS POSSIBLE TO ME AS WOOD SCABBARDS WOULD GENERALLY HOLD UP BETTER IN A DAMP CLIMATE AND BE EASILY AVAILABLE WHERE A LEATHER INDUSTRY MAY HAVE NOT DEVELOPED TO A LARGE EXTENT AS A RESULT. ALSO A LOT LESS CATTLE IN THE PHILIPPINES.

6th June 2012, 05:05 AM	#27
Lew (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: East Coast USA Posts: 3,191	Maybe water buffalo leather?

6th June 2012, 05:14 AM	#28
Lew (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: East Coast USA Posts: 3,191	This is another style of bolo from Pampanga the tip was broken off but still from the same period. Attached Images