Feather Pattern welded blade

rand · 14th August 2007, 07:18 AM

On right side of blade inlaid in gold is
"Made for Charles Forbes' (written in Farsi)

On the left side of the blade
"this sword is equal to the sword of the Great Ali"
(written in Arabic)

On the spine is the date
Dec 24, 1813 (1229)

Rampant lion inlaid on blade

Homogenous one piece hilt is a chevron pattern welded steel.

All decoration is inlaid in gold.

Blade is a single edged pattern welded feather.

pattern steel with has a clip point.

Blade length is 29 & 3/4".

Overall length is 34 & 1/4".

Crossguard is 5 & 1/4" wide.

Scabbard is wood covered with black leather.

Throat, chape and suspension ring mounts are copper reppoussee with gold gilt with European motifs.

Has two suspensions rings, the middle one a later addition during the time of use.

Throat has frog also.

rand · 14th August 2007, 07:19 AM

Charles Forbes Sword Photos...

rand · 14th August 2007, 07:24 AM

More Photo's of Forbes Sword...

rand · 14th August 2007, 07:26 AM

Mre pics of Forbes sword

rand · 14th August 2007, 07:27 AM

Another photo of Forbes sword

rand · 14th August 2007, 07:42 AM

Would be especially interested if anyone has information about Charles Forbes, as far as I know there were two Charles Forbes in India that were the right age to have owned this sword.

Because of the specific date it has been suggested a Christmas gift from his wife or a presentation from his regiment.

Has also been suggested the translation for " this sword is equal to the sword of the Great Ali", would be an arrogant saying for a smith to write and may be misinterpeted.

The suspension ring nearest the tip has been add during the period of use. The style for having a two suspension rings started about 1822 and suggests a long period of use for this sword.

rand

Jim McDougall · 14th August 2007, 07:54 AM

Absolutely breathtaking sabre Rand!! and obviously with some great history given the inscriptions described. I very much look forward to hearing more on this sword from those here well versed on Islamic swords, and on the blade. While it appears to be damascus steel, the clipped blade tip seems atypical for such sabres. The Ottoman form hilt, the date and inscription to Charles Forbes, possibly a diplomatic gift? After the campaigns in Egypt, both British and French officers greatly impressed by the Mamluk warriors, sought to have sabres of the form used by them. The European versions of these swords became regulation patterns that of course exist to this day.

Admiringly

Jim

Dom · 14th August 2007, 11:00 AM

on August 4th, "ham" gave an answer for a translation, who seems to me similar than that one, as follow ;

"THERE IS NO HERO LIKE 'ALI AND SWORD LIKE DHUL'FAKAR"

in fact, no way to translate word to word, but just the spirit

à +

Dom

Dom · 14th August 2007, 11:11 AM

Good Day

Quote:

Originally Posted by rand

Has also been suggested the translation for " this sword is equal to the sword of the Great Ali", would be an arrogant saying for a smith to write and may be misinterpeted.

the translation given to me, is lightly différent, it's a Chiite epitaph;
nobody of other that Ali, and his sword "Al Faqar" (two-pointed magical sword)

in a sense ; as "best young man"

Regards

à +

Dom

rand · 14th August 2007, 04:51 PM

Hey Jim,

Thanks for your feedback. Because the blade appears to be entirely of Indian manufacture (my opinion) , I had dismissed the idea of presentation outside India. But that is certainly a possiblity, thats for pointing that out.

rand

rand · 14th August 2007, 04:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dom

Good Day

the translation given to me, is lightly différent, it's a Chiite epitaph;
nobody of other that Ali, and his sword "Al Faqar" (two-pointed magical sword)

in a sense ; as "best young man"

Regards

à +

Dom

Thanks for the info Dom,

Have a feeling you are most likely correct....

rand

rand · 14th August 2007, 05:02 PM

Hey Jim,

The clipped point is inusual, its more to the Russian or Dutch taste. When I first saw this sword about 16 years ago displayed about 16' above the floor, remember my first impression was that it may be Russian, only seeing the sword sheathed. Can't remember if I was able to see the blade before buying it.....

rand

Jeff D · 14th August 2007, 05:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rand

Hey Jim,

The clipped point is inusual, its more to the Russian or Dutch taste. When I first saw this sword about 16 years ago displayed about 18' high, about 16' above the floor, remember my first impression was that it may be Russian, only seeing the sword sheathed. Can't remember if I was able to see the blade before buying it.....

rand

Hi Rand and Jim,

I have occasionally seen these points on British Mamelukes as well.

All the Best
Jeff

rand · 14th August 2007, 05:46 PM

Jeff,

Interesting point (bad pun)

or

I get the point (bad pun II, the sequel)

rand
could not resist some levity...

Jeff,

Your blade looks a though it may be a pattern weld? Is it? The chevron shaped designs on the chape are very interesting.

rand

rand · 14th August 2007, 07:41 PM

Posted this sabre in classified swap section but is owned by me so is OK to continue discussion. Wanted to open this sword for opinions whle I have it...

rand

Jim McDougall · 15th August 2007, 06:35 AM

You're very welcome Rand, I'm glad to be able to offer anything helpful on this very handsome sabre. There were many outfitters in India to provide dress and presentation weapons for British officers, many of them private makers and many such as Manson in Calcutta handled regulation patterns.
There were of course also such outfitters in Egypt and in Aden in Arabia.

Thank you Jeff for showing the clipped tip mameluke blade, which were indeed often seen on these. If not mistaken, this clipped point was favored on many German cavalry blades in the 18th century which of course ended up with British swords. In one reference book , "Schwert Degen Sabel" by Gerhard Siefert (1962) in a line drawing group illustrating terms for varying blade forms, such a tip is referred to as a 'pandour point'. The association to these flamboyant auxiliary troops seems unclear, but the blade feature is known on some 18th century French blades as well.

With these instances considered, it does seem distinctly a European favored feature and not typically occurring on Indian, Arabian or Mamluk swords. Since 'damascus' blades were not produced in the European blade centers (as far as I know

that used this distinct clipped point, this blade is clearly an intriguing anomaly with interesting historical potential.

All best regards,'
Jim

Lew · 15th August 2007, 01:34 PM

To me the damascus pattern seems to have been acid etched I see areas where there are breaks or worn spots in the pattern. This may have been a European made to look like an Arabic sword. Notice on the center picture that the pattern comes all the down to the edge? The bottom pic shows a wide splotchy area where they got a bit sloppy with the wax the hilt has the same pattern on it and since the grip would be oval in cross section I don't think the pattern could be exact pattern the same as a flat blade. Still a very nice sword.

Lew

Mark · 15th August 2007, 02:54 PM

This sword is now being offered for sale. Forum guidelines prohibit discussion of items being sold. Thread closed until the sale is completed.

14th August 2007, 07:18 AM	#1
rand Member Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Virginia Posts: 538	Feather Pattern welded blade On right side of blade inlaid in gold is "Made for Charles Forbes' (written in Farsi) On the left side of the blade "this sword is equal to the sword of the Great Ali" (written in Arabic) On the spine is the date Dec 24, 1813 (1229) Rampant lion inlaid on blade Homogenous one piece hilt is a chevron pattern welded steel. All decoration is inlaid in gold. Blade is a single edged pattern welded feather. pattern steel with has a clip point. Blade length is 29 & 3/4". Overall length is 34 & 1/4". Crossguard is 5 & 1/4" wide. Scabbard is wood covered with black leather. Throat, chape and suspension ring mounts are copper reppoussee with gold gilt with European motifs. Has two suspensions rings, the middle one a later addition during the time of use. Throat has frog also. Attached Images

14th August 2007, 07:19 AM	#2
rand Member Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Virginia Posts: 538	Charles Forbes Sword Charles Forbes Sword Photos... Attached Images

14th August 2007, 07:24 AM	#3
rand Member Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Virginia Posts: 538	More Pics More Photo's of Forbes Sword... Attached Images

14th August 2007, 07:26 AM	#4
rand Member Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Virginia Posts: 538	More Pics Mre pics of Forbes sword Attached Images

14th August 2007, 07:27 AM	#5
rand Member Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Virginia Posts: 538	More Pics Another photo of Forbes sword Attached Images

14th August 2007, 07:42 AM	#6
rand Member Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Virginia Posts: 538	Charles Forbes sword Would be especially interested if anyone has information about Charles Forbes, as far as I know there were two Charles Forbes in India that were the right age to have owned this sword. Because of the specific date it has been suggested a Christmas gift from his wife or a presentation from his regiment. Has also been suggested the translation for " this sword is equal to the sword of the Great Ali", would be an arrogant saying for a smith to write and may be misinterpeted. The suspension ring nearest the tip has been add during the period of use. The style for having a two suspension rings started about 1822 and suggests a long period of use for this sword. rand

14th August 2007, 07:54 AM	#7
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,944	Absolutely breathtaking sabre Rand!! and obviously with some great history given the inscriptions described. I very much look forward to hearing more on this sword from those here well versed on Islamic swords, and on the blade. While it appears to be damascus steel, the clipped blade tip seems atypical for such sabres. The Ottoman form hilt, the date and inscription to Charles Forbes, possibly a diplomatic gift? After the campaigns in Egypt, both British and French officers greatly impressed by the Mamluk warriors, sought to have sabres of the form used by them. The European versions of these swords became regulation patterns that of course exist to this day. Admiringly Jim

14th August 2007, 11:00 AM	#8
Dom Member Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: Paris (FR*) Cairo (EG) Posts: 1,142	on August 4th, "ham" gave an answer for a translation, who seems to me similar than that one, as follow ; "THERE IS NO HERO LIKE 'ALI AND SWORD LIKE DHUL'FAKAR" in fact, no way to translate word to word, but just the spirit à + Dom Last edited by Dom; 14th August 2007 at 05:07 PM.

14th August 2007, 04:51 PM	#10
rand Member Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Virginia Posts: 538	Presentation in Europe Hey Jim, Thanks for your feedback. Because the blade appears to be entirely of Indian manufacture (my opinion) , I had dismissed the idea of presentation outside India. But that is certainly a possiblity, thats for pointing that out. rand

14th August 2007, 05:02 PM	#12
rand Member Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Virginia Posts: 538	Clipped Point Hey Jim, The clipped point is inusual, its more to the Russian or Dutch taste. When I first saw this sword about 16 years ago displayed about 16' above the floor, remember my first impression was that it may be Russian, only seeing the sword sheathed. Can't remember if I was able to see the blade before buying it..... rand Last edited by rand; 14th August 2007 at 05:38 PM.

14th August 2007, 05:46 PM	#14
rand Member Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Virginia Posts: 538	Clip Point Jeff, Interesting point (bad pun) or I get the point (bad pun II, the sequel) rand could not resist some levity... Jeff, Your blade looks a though it may be a pattern weld? Is it? The chevron shaped designs on the chape are very interesting. rand Last edited by rand; 14th August 2007 at 07:37 PM.

14th August 2007, 07:41 PM	#15
rand Member Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Virginia Posts: 538	Posted in classified swap section Posted this sabre in classified swap section but is owned by me so is OK to continue discussion. Wanted to open this sword for opinions whle I have it... rand

15th August 2007, 06:35 AM	#16
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,944	You're very welcome Rand, I'm glad to be able to offer anything helpful on this very handsome sabre. There were many outfitters in India to provide dress and presentation weapons for British officers, many of them private makers and many such as Manson in Calcutta handled regulation patterns. There were of course also such outfitters in Egypt and in Aden in Arabia. Thank you Jeff for showing the clipped tip mameluke blade, which were indeed often seen on these. If not mistaken, this clipped point was favored on many German cavalry blades in the 18th century which of course ended up with British swords. In one reference book , "Schwert Degen Sabel" by Gerhard Siefert (1962) in a line drawing group illustrating terms for varying blade forms, such a tip is referred to as a 'pandour point'. The association to these flamboyant auxiliary troops seems unclear, but the blade feature is known on some 18th century French blades as well. With these instances considered, it does seem distinctly a European favored feature and not typically occurring on Indian, Arabian or Mamluk swords. Since 'damascus' blades were not produced in the European blade centers (as far as I know that used this distinct clipped point, this blade is clearly an intriguing anomaly with interesting historical potential. All best regards,' Jim

15th August 2007, 01:34 PM	#17
Lew (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: East Coast USA Posts: 3,191	To me the damascus pattern seems to have been acid etched I see areas where there are breaks or worn spots in the pattern. This may have been a European made to look like an Arabic sword. Notice on the center picture that the pattern comes all the down to the edge? The bottom pic shows a wide splotchy area where they got a bit sloppy with the wax the hilt has the same pattern on it and since the grip would be oval in cross section I don't think the pattern could be exact pattern the same as a flat blade. Still a very nice sword. Lew Attached Images Last edited by LOUIEBLADES; 15th August 2007 at 02:01 PM.

15th August 2007, 02:54 PM	#18
Mark Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 987	This sword is now being offered for sale. Forum guidelines prohibit discussion of items being sold. Thread closed until the sale is completed.